john12ax7

Re: Protests - George Floyd
« Reply #20 on: June 07, 2020, 06:43:51 PM »
The police commissioner clearly said, Canada does not have a systemic problem with racism in the police force.

Someone saying something automatically makes it true? In the US there has been case after case of police claiming one version of events only to have video evidence come out showing a completely different story.  The police hiding the wrongdoing of other police is a huge part of the problem.

Regarding the protests I have seen elderly people interviewed on local tv.  They recognized the health risk they were taking,  but felt the cause of the protest was more important.


Re: Protests - George Floyd
« Reply #21 on: June 07, 2020, 06:48:08 PM »
Regarding the protests I have seen elderly people interviewed on local tv.  They recognized the health risk they were taking,  but felt the cause of the protest was more important.
This says a lot!

Re: Protests - George Floyd
« Reply #22 on: June 07, 2020, 06:50:47 PM »
I am far and away considered a gentle and caring person too, but I'm also a fighter - if and when I see something that needs fighting for.  I would say any of this in person, and heated discussions are important as far as I'm concerned.  You can't be afraid to call someone or something out, even if it's uncomfortable.  I'm not gonna pussy foot around and try to play nice to come across as everyone's best buddy on the Internet.  This could make me public enemy No. 1, but I don't care.

P.S. What kind of reform are you going to get with those who deny what's plain to see?

john12ax7

Re: Protests - George Floyd
« Reply #23 on: June 07, 2020, 07:05:30 PM »
*** there is a good argument that Chauvin's supervisors should have removed him already.

Virtually impossible with the strength of the unions and with people like Kroll running them.  This is why  I asked about him in the other thread.  But you implied it's lazy thinking and not constructive.  So it's rather unclear of what your position is.

boji

Re: Protests - George Floyd
« Reply #24 on: June 07, 2020, 07:20:53 PM »
Quote
Nope, love you boji, but the two sides are not equal.
I don't mean to imply both positions are equal in importance, only that I can see that the differences in perspectives are what is driving the debate, and at their core, both are attempting to rid the world of suffering, which is a good thing.

I've no exclusion principle playing around in my mind. Not a zero-sum game, to appreciate the motivations that drive people to take caution, or stand for what is right.

Edit: grammer.

Post thought:  If I may steelman the covid perspective a wee bit more:  what if in the process of close quarter protesting (a constitutional right) more people die than would've if the violence and prejudice of cops had not received a full-on, take-to-the-streets type of universal condemnation?  Sacrificing the lives of Americans is worth the cost of an improved, more humane law enforcement system that rejects racial profiling.  At the cost of how many lives? How many is too many?  10,000?  1,000,000?  Or, is it as many as are needed until justice is achieved and equality-for-all has become a lived-in reality? 
(Assume the people who are most likely to catch it and die are protesters and whoever they come in contact with, ie friends, family)

My ultimate point to steelmanning it is to consider a future covid, perhaps one with a higher R0.  What behaviors we normalize in the face of covid today may be a precursor to what follows.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2020, 08:01:47 PM by boji »

Scodiddly

Re: Protests - George Floyd
« Reply #25 on: June 08, 2020, 09:39:22 AM »
Ultimately the people protesting have concluded that doing something to stop the systemic racism and violence against black people has a higher health priority than a global pandemic. 

And I agree with them.

A riot is nobody's first choice, but it's what you end up with after every other avenue of protest has fallen on deaf ears.

JohnRoberts

Re: Protests - George Floyd
« Reply #26 on: June 08, 2020, 10:05:54 AM »
Virtually impossible with the strength of the unions and with people like Kroll running them.  This is why  I asked about him in the other thread.  But you implied it's lazy thinking and not constructive.  So it's rather unclear of what your position is.
I am repeating myself but sunlight is the best disinfectant.

A) publish body cam footage... public inspection should help identify serial offenders and provide evidence that can not be ignored.

B) The FBI just started collecting a database about force used in arrests. This database just started a little over a year ago, but this should reveal if there is systematic problems.

Law abiding protests are a protected constitutional right.... rioting and looting are not. The premise that calls for reform have been ignored as an excuse for violence is not supported by evidence.  Truth is a squishy thing and not objective like data... The same people who tell you who to vote for, and what brand of TP to buy, are telling you to hate all police. IMO the police (with a few obvious exceptions) are the good guys and all that is preventing our civilization from collapsing into chaos. In a classic "follow the money" exercise look at who benefits from making America weaker and even more divided.

JR

PS; Maybe ask yourself why the DOJ/FBI is only now collecting data on excessive force (why didn't earlier administrations take action?). Excessive force during arrest is not really a federal crime so it needs to be classified as a "hate crime" for federal statues to apply.  That said a federal database documenting problems will help states and municipalities to take action.  Of course the democratic house will not let this man made crisis go to waste and come to the rescue of would be voters with un-passable legislation to virtue signal, with a presidential vote only months away.  ::)
Don't only half-ass tune your drums. Visit https://circularscience.com to hear what properly "cleared" drums sound like.

scott2000

Re: Protests - George Floyd
« Reply #27 on: June 10, 2020, 08:03:02 AM »
Pretty sure the Mayor of Buffalo was saying something along these lines after it happened..... But yeah.... Excessive force is just out of control for these people in authority... I mean I know we're all human but it would be nice to know that there is better training where emotions don't take priority...anger,fear...etc....

living sounds

Re: Protests - George Floyd
« Reply #28 on: June 10, 2020, 08:05:40 AM »
No doubt much of his loyal base believe such sh*te but, wtf? 
 
 Trump tweets baseless crap that the  75-year-old guy hospitalized after police shoved him to the ground was possibly  “an antifa provocateur” and that the incident “could be a set-up”!

I realise he only has a limited repertoire and he has been holed up in the bunker but still...

Edit:  Actually, on thinking some more about this, I'm actually horrified.  The White House just  personally discredited an American citizen.  That's dangerous stuff.


This is pricisely why even his loyal base is now showing signs of starting to crumble. There is hope.

scott2000

Re: Protests - George Floyd
« Reply #29 on: June 10, 2020, 09:33:14 AM »
Quote
 
 I think this is key.    21 weeks training is nowhere near enough.
 
 


I wasn't going to post this and may delete it later .
Speaking with someone I was told a story that it is said when you hear people say "my life flashed before my eyes" in a stressful scenario , it is your mind searching it's memories for a past experience to draw from that can help  instruct how to respond.

When there is nothing there, all bets are off on how people may respond.

It takes a lot of training to upload this data to your brain so that your responses are second nature and not driven by an emotional freak out if that makes sense....


living sounds

Re: Protests - George Floyd
« Reply #30 on: June 10, 2020, 10:30:01 AM »
I wasn't going to post this and may delete it later .
Speaking with someone I was told a story that it is said when you hear people say "my life flashed before my eyes" in a stressful scenario , it is your mind searching it's memories for a past experience to draw from that can help  instruct how to respond.

When there is nothing there, all bets are off on how people may respond.

It takes a lot of training to upload this data to your brain so that your responses are second nature and not driven by an emotional freak out if that makes sense....

Police not only react, but also act differently in the US from the get go. Maybe this has to do with the blasted gun love in the US, but a routine traffic stop in Britain or Germany tends to go down very differently. There's a huge difference in overall attitude. US police more often appear to act with a general distrust, even hostility. Which is not to say that other countries don't have problems with police and policing, but this was always very obvious to me. Even as a tourist you get warned how to behave in the US when engaging police officers. That just isn't necessary in many other western countries...

living sounds

Re: Protests - George Floyd
« Reply #31 on: June 10, 2020, 11:08:34 AM »

fazer

Re: Protests - George Floyd
« Reply #32 on: June 10, 2020, 01:58:48 PM »
My first encounter with a U.S. police officer I was just 18.  Kinda long, sorry:

On tour in Jason Bonhams band, we were opening act forJimmy Page & Paul Rogers'    'The Firm'.  Never mind, you won't remember them. Or know us, not the point.
In some hotel . In Atlanta. 
Jason and I go down to the hotel restaurant for food after the gig.
Jason is recognised down there as some kids had been at the gig and he so he is signing an autograph while
cheekily grabbing a couple of French fries off the kid.   No one is bothering anyone.
Some cop is in there and, I guess?, doesn't like the look of us standing there, still wearing our glam '80's rock hair, makeup, clothes etc.

Walks over and "makes a stance".   Wants to know what the hell trouble we're causing.  We have no idea what he was talking about and  are just being us, kids having fun, pretending we're real rock stars.
Cop tells us to leave.  We say we're staying at the hotel.
He insists then we show him proof.  Jason is getting upset  and I'm trying to explain our passports and stuff are upstairs and we just really wanna eat.

He pulls his 'weapon' out, shoves it in my stomach and says "wanna argue about it?'  I say "no, we're leaving to go upstairs now"   He says "Good.  And wipe that sh*t off your eyes, your mother had a boy!"

 Jason is crying in the room for 30 minutes after.  I'm in shock, finally realising that we really could have gotten shot.

Nice one.  Not  :/
 

That explains a lot of your feelings in this matter.  Thanks for sharing.

john12ax7

Re: Protests - George Floyd
« Reply #33 on: June 10, 2020, 06:57:59 PM »
In the US there is definitely an adversarial relationship between police and citizens, much more so than in other western democracies.  Hopefully reform will come.

cyrano

Re: Protests - George Floyd
« Reply #34 on: June 11, 2020, 05:32:00 AM »
In the US there is definitely an adversarial relationship between police and citizens, much more so than in other western democracies.  Hopefully reform will come.

Not only police, I'm afraid. It seems averything related to federal or even local government is seen as the enemy by a part of the population.

In France, most people consider their govt to be theirs. After all "La France, c'est nous", n'est ce pas?
Why is it people love to believe and hate to know?

manulaudic

Re: Protests - George Floyd
« Reply #35 on: June 12, 2020, 11:15:25 AM »
Anybody else reading or listening to Coleman Hughes ?


cyrano

Re: Protests - George Floyd
« Reply #36 on: June 14, 2020, 01:55:23 PM »
Fox News stoops to a new low:

https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/politics/fox-news-runs-digitally-altered-images-in-coverage-of-seattles-protests-capitol-hill-autonomous-zone/

Photoshopping together pics from fifferent places and different dates is an error these days?

Were they really hoping nobody would notice these fake photos? I mean, how stupid can you be?
Why is it people love to believe and hate to know?

crazydoc

Re: Protests - George Floyd
« Reply #37 on: June 14, 2020, 02:18:20 PM »
I mean, how stupid can you be?
As stupid Fox's mentor, President Pants-On-Fire.

And hey, that cardboard gunman with the green mask sure gets around.
Luckily, there is more than one way to skin a cat.
The secret of happiness is having low expectations.

scott2000

Re: Protests - George Floyd
« Reply #38 on: June 14, 2020, 02:43:39 PM »
I'm confused. Where was the gunman with the green mask taken from?  It's fake?
That's crazy.. Wtf?

crazydoc

Re: Protests - George Floyd
« Reply #39 on: June 14, 2020, 02:59:47 PM »
I'm confused. Where was the gunman with the green mask taken from?  It's fake?
That's crazy.. Wtf?
Did you read the article?

'The June 10 photo of an unidentified man with a gun standing in front of a car in CHAZ was taken by Seattle freelance photographer David Ryder, who distributed the photo through Getty Images.

The image, as displayed on the Fox News website, was spliced with other photos, including a photo of a smashed retail storefront in May, making it look as though the scene was all playing out concurrently in the autonomous zone. “It is definitely Photoshopped,” confirmed Ryder. “To use a photo out of context in a journalistic setting like that seems unethical.” '

Seems unethical?  Just more lies - they've learned their lessons well from the Liar-in-chief.
Luckily, there is more than one way to skin a cat.
The secret of happiness is having low expectations.


 

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