Re: Cables
« Reply #20 on: July 14, 2020, 11:38:29 PM »
Older thread now -
The Cardas bulk twin shielded cable I've used in the past is now unavailable so I've just received some Grimm Audio TPR cable  which I ordered based purely  on the recommendation I saw on Marik's Samar Audio site.     It's not particularly cheap, but neither was the Cardas.
We'll see
Note to self:  Don't let c**ts wind you up


rackmonkey

Re: Cables
« Reply #21 on: July 15, 2020, 12:35:58 AM »
Let us know how you like it. Open to something new when I use up the last 100' or so of Belden.
Whether you think you can or you think you can't, you're probably right.

Re: Cables
« Reply #22 on: July 15, 2020, 12:52:16 AM »
Let us know how you like it. Open to something new when I use up the last 100' or so of Belden.

Belden is the best IMHO

gyraf

Re: Cables
« Reply #23 on: July 15, 2020, 03:35:14 AM »
Aah, the cable topic, perhaps hoping it to turn into a hifi discussion?

This is traditional gourmet food for trolls  ;D

Windows vs MacOs anyone?

/Jakob E.
..note to self: don't let Harman run your company..

Michael Tibes

Re: Cables
« Reply #24 on: July 15, 2020, 06:39:38 AM »
Aah, the cable topic, perhaps hoping it to turn into a hifi discussion?
Yep, but since we're civilized, well behaved people we're allowed to talk about it ;-)

+1 for Mogami 2549. It had by far the lowest capacitance among those cables which were available here in Germany a long time ago when I made the comparison. And - aside all the obvious 'sound'  issues - I have literally not experienced a single Mogami product fail in probably 30 years. It feels like I'll be able to pass them on once I retire in the far away future.  Also no interference problems ever.

I can't say that there are no other good cables out there, but the 2549 would be my first choice without thinking.

Michael

Re: Cables
« Reply #25 on: July 15, 2020, 08:07:58 AM »
What I like of Belden cable  is the construction, it is sturdy as f***, I don't believe in cable sound, unless the capacitance is too high and the cable is too long, it may roll of some highs, but a good quality cable should be ok.

ruffrecords

Re: Cables
« Reply #26 on: July 15, 2020, 06:05:48 PM »
Aah, the cable topic, perhaps hoping it to turn into a hifi discussion?

This is traditional gourmet food for trolls  ;D

Windows vs MacOs anyone?

/Jakob E.

Neither, I use a real OS Linux  :P

Cheers

Ian
www.customtubeconsoles.com
https://mark3vtm.blogspot.co.uk/
www.eztubemixer.blogspot.co.uk


'The only people not making mistakes are the people doing nothing'

gyraf

Re: Cables
« Reply #27 on: July 16, 2020, 04:45:55 AM »
 ;D
..note to self: don't let Harman run your company..

totoxraymond

Re: Cables
« Reply #28 on: July 16, 2020, 10:54:36 AM »
Hi,

I've always used Cordial CMK 222 for mic cables, never had to complain. Easy to solder, nicely flexible, very reliable in the long term (i have a lot of 10+ yo cables).

A frien gave me a long run of Canare. It's a PITA to solder, but fine otherwise.

As for sound... i believe that you need a really bad cable to make a difference. Or a very long run...

Cheers

Thomas

JohnRoberts

Re: Cables
« Reply #29 on: July 16, 2020, 11:23:18 AM »
I first wrote about funny wire (snake oil marketing) for my "audio mythology" column back in the early 80s.

In the late 80's while working at Peavey (AMR) I looked at getting in on the party... I had one of our large wire vendors make me up a batch of quad wrap (like star-quad) mic cable. I did some crude A/B comparisons between this Peavey-quad wire and standard mic cable for hum rejection. My test involved wrapping a few loops of the mic cable around a ceiling fluorescent light fixture.... 

The quad wire was significantly quieter then the standard dual conductor mic cable, under identical (extreme) conditions. There is no free lunch so the quad wrap wire has more capacitance but this is generally not an issue. I considered offering this as an accessory, but our reps/dealers were not enthusiastic. 

Wire is a mature technology.  8)

JR
Don't only half-ass tune your drums. Visit https://circularscience.com to hear what properly "cleared" drums sound like.


JohnRoberts

Re: Cables
« Reply #30 on: July 19, 2020, 09:41:46 AM »

Yeah, pretty much.

As John just said, the quad star is higher in capacitance and I found that long runs can have a perceivable (and measurable) effect in some situations.   Lengthy ribbon mic to mic amp  is where I saw it.
 
Always trade offs- a braided shield on a twin cable will ameliorate some of the noise increase from not using quad without the capacitance issue, but is a bit more of a pain to work with.
Quote from: JR
quad wrap wire has more capacitance but this is generally not an issue
I have never personally experienced HF loss from cable capacitance in mic cables while it can matter in guitar cables due to high impedance and inductive source impedance of guitar pickups. Another cable where capacitance matters is in phono preamp cables. The cable capacitance can add a significant fraction of optimal cartridge loading/termination capacitance.

Of course for unusually long mic cables capacitance that increases with length can become significant. One industry that experienced this was movie making where they could end up with thousands of feet long mic cables on location. Their old school remedy was to use lower impedance microphones. A 50 ohm mic will tolerate a 3-4x longer mic cables all else equal. This is mooted now by wireless mics that don't depend on wire transmission.

For practical mic cable lengths, with low Z microphones this is not a problem, but if nervous the math is simple. Look up the pF per foot, and compute total C based on cable length, then apply RC to LPF calculation.   

JR 

PS: AFAIK ribbon mics are not unusually high source impedance more notable for impedance/loading issues at bass resonance, but I am not the ribbon mic expert here. 
Don't only half-ass tune your drums. Visit https://circularscience.com to hear what properly "cleared" drums sound like.

fazer

Re: Cables
« Reply #31 on: July 19, 2020, 10:34:12 AM »
Back in the 70’s we had tape decks and consoles from tascam which used unbalanced RCA connectors and had higher impedance inputs .   You could hear the high frequency improved by listening to the amplifier output noise from the tape deck while stopped.   Changing to tascams low capacitive cables was instantly brighter noise when cranking the monitors.    Never mind the sound of the narrow track width of the tapes playback.   Belden 8451 was so much easier to work with but caused a noticeable hi freq rolloff in the semi-pro tascam format of the day .  Belden sounds fine when using with professional consoles of the day.     

 It struck me funny that  trainwreck amps  are bright and aggressive sounding.  A guitar players solution  would use a 50’ coil of wire between the guitar and amp to use the capacitance/ft to roll off the highs.   Hendrix would use the coil cords to roll off the squeal from his Marshall’s.  I measued the capacitance of a coil cord across a cord shield and center conductor that I still have at .001 mfd total.   Never Mind you could just put a cap across the input of the guitar amp.   The ancients worked all this out .   Balanced lines have advantages(  along with working with lower impedance)  can fix a number of ills.   Hifi unbalanced will have significant improvements with lower capacitance cable.
« Last Edit: July 19, 2020, 10:38:35 AM by fazer »

JohnRoberts

Re: Cables
« Reply #32 on: July 19, 2020, 01:55:13 PM »
The ribbon mic in question was indeed higher output impedance than the historical equivalent.   The old American standard of 50 ohms is no longer the norm.   Yes, of course,  regarding the loading and bass resonance.
Do you happen to know what that higher output impedance was? 

Star-quad is something like 46-56 pF per foot. 50 meters of (56pF) star quad would need an 875 ohm mic source impedance to be down 3dB @20kHz (check my math).

A plot of a modern ribbon.

note the bass resonance that interacts with loading (resistive not capacitive). There is some inductance so there will be rising impedance with frequency, but generally not problematic in typical use.

I am not aware of an old "American" standard of 50 ohms. As I mentioned 50 ohms was used in the film industry.  Old school mics were often engineered as a set with an active preamp. Step up transformers matched the low output ribbon to active gain stages. 
Quote
Besides movie making,  live performances can be subject to long cable runs. I've seen quad wrap cable frequently used here for the benefits it has in noise rejection.  Add a transformer splitter for simultaneous live recording and, in my particular case, I was interested in keeping the info entering the microphones as intact as possible.

As for my new 50 metre cable from Grimm -  I admit I probably over paid  or what I need it for.  It isn't particularly easy to work with but it has good shielding.  It's terminated in XLR's now and I'm already on to the next thing :)
In my experience it is easier to use EQ to tweak a soft top end than to remove hum and buzz, but pick your poison.

JR
Don't only half-ass tune your drums. Visit https://circularscience.com to hear what properly "cleared" drums sound like.

john12ax7

Re: Cables
« Reply #33 on: July 19, 2020, 03:18:15 PM »
Never Mind you could just put a cap across the input of the guitar amp.

Fwiw,  I've tried to mimic cable capacitance with a simple shunt capacitor and don't think they sound the same.

bluebird

Re: Cables
« Reply #34 on: July 19, 2020, 04:36:43 PM »
It really all depends on who your going to vote for in November. Let get this thread back on track! 8)


P.S. I can hear "mask" capacitance...

scott2000

Re: Cables
« Reply #35 on: July 19, 2020, 04:41:27 PM »
It really all depends on who your going to vote for in November. Let get this thread back on track! 8)


Agree!

I vote for

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iWM40bHYNtI

Re: Cables
« Reply #36 on: July 19, 2020, 04:58:09 PM »
It really all depends on who your going to vote for in November. Let get this thread back on track! 8)
 

 I agree.    I now wish I'd never posted in this damn thread. 
Other than my initial post, I'm going back and erasing my bullsh*t!
Server space is money. 

Shan't be voting for anyone in November but will be rooting forAmerica from way over in the King George III's old country. 
Note to self:  Don't let c**ts wind you up


 

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