Re: I Drink
« Reply #20 on: June 13, 2020, 08:29:42 PM »
So if you are talking about all generes, then There are no purely clean, purely digital productions.  None, also applies to all generes?

That's right, there are none.

I'll say it again, my parents listen to a channel called easy listening, this is mostly orchestrated stuff that is digitally sampled usually.  I sometimes listen to real orchestras recorded in many eras.  I prefer the older productions.

Now before we get into a genre or generational debate, go back, have a read of my lengthy first post in this thread, and see it's about MUCH more than digital vs analog, colour vs. no colour.

I'm addressing what I believe is adding to the anxiety of the world.  The fact you want to debate me on little side tracks and try to trip up what I say by focusing in on scientific proof, well I can't really help you.  I addressed that in my first post in this thread too.  About people going in circles trying to convince one another of their side of things over the Internet.

I have a real problem with people who come on an ignore the entire depth of the conversation and then just pipe in with one small fraction of the topics at hand and, essentially baiting people into an argument.  You assume a lot even when I've spelled it out quite clearly.

So from this point on ... refer back to my first post in this thread, and I'm going to leave it there.  If you think there's no problem with the audio delivery, today's crappy power amps, and crappy little speakers, and all the quantity of digital 'content' ... I can't convince you of it.

I see a MAJOR problem, you don't.

Adam


Re: I Drink
« Reply #21 on: June 13, 2020, 08:36:01 PM »
The problem is that all the proof that you have provided to back up your arguments is "my parents listen to a station called easy listening", and when asked for proof of your arguments you tell me that "you'll leave that to me" or you get angry... Like I said, you are obviously young and I should not take it on you, I'll leave you with your opinions since there is no point arguing with you. Im out.

Re: I Drink
« Reply #22 on: June 13, 2020, 08:39:32 PM »
The problem is that all the proof that you have provided to back up your arguments is "my parents listen to a station called easy listening", and when asked for proof of your arguments you tell me that "you'll leave that to me" or you get angry... Like I said, you are obviously young and I should not take it on you, I'll leave you with your opinions since there is no point arguing with you. Im out.

I'm older than you think and a professional.  I have made a lot of intelligent points and you continue to nit pick.  Congratulations.

Re: I Drink
« Reply #23 on: June 13, 2020, 09:24:27 PM »
please allow me to chime in.

public has spoken.  sales of new classical (digital) are nearly non-existent.   
lets hear the excuses.

meanwhile, Brian's friends in Salinas, Kansas have been selling vintage vinyl, including classical recordings for years.
yes, those records with hiss , distortion, and wow & flutter.

Re: I Drink
« Reply #24 on: June 13, 2020, 09:31:34 PM »
please allow me to chime in.

public has spoken.  sales of new classical (digital) are nearly non-existent.   
lets hear the excuses.

meanwhile, Brian's friends in Salinas, Kansas have been selling vintage vinyl, including classical recordings for years.
yes, those records with hiss , distortion, and wow & flutter.

Again, show me the numbers.... from a reputable source if possible

ruairioflaherty

Re: I Drink
« Reply #25 on: June 13, 2020, 11:13:21 PM »
Ruairi and Dualflip, what mics do you use?  What hardware?  Show me one record that you like that doesn't have imperfections on it.  Did I ever say crap records aren't or weren't made on good hardware?

Hey Adam,

My statement was deliberately as short as possible to be provocative but it's a point I stand behind.  Don't add tubes/tranformers/mojo/fairy dust in an effort to "fix" poor digital, it does not work.  The antidote to too much salt is not a bunch of sugar.

Alongside that I would say one should absolutely use any flavor they like in the creation of music, I have 3 tube compressors to hand in the studio.  Any flavor is legitimate, from the lofi plug in in Pro Tools to a vintage console, from the cleanest to dirtiest end of the spectrum.

You've gotten an idea in your head that the forum is populated entirely by low distortion spec heads when in reality that's not the case.

As an example you don't know anything about the music I came up  on, the gear I use, the music I like etc etc.  You have an almost religious belief in old/vintage/mojo/organic - I've owned & used enough  of that gear to know how fun it can be but also that it is not where the music is (although to be sure, some music has a hard time existing without the tones used).

I only own one mic, a Neumann U67.  Am I allowed to make records?

ruairioflaherty

Re: I Drink
« Reply #26 on: June 13, 2020, 11:23:03 PM »
Now before we get into a genre or generational debate, go back, have a read of my lengthy first post in this thread, and see it's about MUCH more than digital vs analog, colour vs. no colour.

I just went back to re-read the post you mentioned.

The idea that there are "police" here for any idea doesn't hold water but if you make baseless technical claims you will be called out by the real engineers in the house. 

I barely get to play music anymore with mastering/acoustics work and family,, maybe 5 mins a day .  When I do, out of the 6 guitars I own the two I play are the very cheapest, not the fancy vintage ones.  It's cool to like whatever you like, you don't need anyone here to approve.





Brian Roth

Re: I Drink
« Reply #27 on: June 14, 2020, 12:32:37 AM »
please allow me to chime in.

public has spoken.  sales of new classical (digital) are nearly non-existent.   
lets hear the excuses.

meanwhile, Brian's friends in Salinas, Kansas have been selling vintage vinyl, including classical recordings for years.
yes, those records with hiss , distortion, and wow & flutter.

Well,  besides "vintage vinyl" the teams here in Salina have been working hard in other areas, including pressing of new vinyl releases, both from analog sources as well as digital. 

https://store.acousticsounds.com/index.cfm?get=results&label=analogue%20productions

http://www.qualityrecordpressings.com/


Acoustic Sounds has also licensed recordings to be digitally released in DSD (which can sound amazing if properly transferred).

https://store.acousticsounds.com/index.cfm?get=results&categoryid=372&LabelID=4082

I do have to say, though, that some masters (old and new) sound amazing when played back on an Ampex ATR-100.  I can't quite put my finger (ear?) on why.

Have $450 for a "record album". but on 15 IPS 1/4"  2 track?

https://store.acousticsounds.com/c/406/1/4_Inch_-_15_IPS_Tape


Bri
« Last Edit: June 14, 2020, 12:45:48 AM by Brian Roth »
Brian Roth Technical Services
Salina Kansas, home of the best vinyl on the planet!

http://www.BrianRoth.com
recordingservicesandsupply.com/
www.qualityrecordpressings.com/
store.acousticsounds.com

Re: I Drink
« Reply #28 on: June 14, 2020, 07:07:45 AM »
Hey Adam,

My statement was deliberately as short as possible to be provocative but it's a point I stand behind.  Don't add tubes/tranformers/mojo/fairy dust in an effort to "fix" poor digital, it does not work.  The antidote to too much salt is not a bunch of sugar.

Alongside that I would say one should absolutely use any flavor they like in the creation of music, I have 3 tube compressors to hand in the studio.  Any flavor is legitimate, from the lofi plug in in Pro Tools to a vintage console, from the cleanest to dirtiest end of the spectrum.

You've gotten an idea in your head that the forum is populated entirely by low distortion spec heads when in reality that's not the case.

As an example you don't know anything about the music I came up  on, the gear I use, the music I like etc etc.  You have an almost religious belief in old/vintage/mojo/organic - I've owned & used enough  of that gear to know how fun it can be but also that it is not where the music is (although to be sure, some music has a hard time existing without the tones used).

I only own one mic, a Neumann U67.  Am I allowed to make records?

I'm not talking about just music creation, or saying vintage equipment saves a bad song.  Seems so pointless to talk about all this stuff.  Delivery, listening experience, quantity of crap being fed out into the machine..... again, read the whole post.

Come in with something about the bigger picture I'm talking about.

You're certainly allowed to make records.

Adam

Re: I Drink
« Reply #29 on: June 14, 2020, 07:09:19 AM »
I just went back to re-read the post you mentioned.

The idea that there are "police" here for any idea doesn't hold water but if you make baseless technical claims you will be called out by the real engineers in the house. 

I barely get to play music anymore with mastering/acoustics work and family,, maybe 5 mins a day .  When I do, out of the 6 guitars I own the two I play are the very cheapest, not the fancy vintage ones.  It's cool to like whatever you like, you don't need anyone here to approve.

They're not baseless, and I am a real engineer.


Re: I Drink
« Reply #30 on: June 14, 2020, 07:14:56 AM »
I do have to say, though, that some masters (old and new) sound amazing when played back on an Ampex ATR-100.  I can't quite put my finger (ear?) on why.
Bri

It's a hard thing to put your finger on and ear on.  Hard thing to talk about here too.  But, please do.

Adam

scott2000

Re: I Drink
« Reply #31 on: June 14, 2020, 10:13:12 AM »
Quote
It's a hard thing to put your finger on and ear on.  Hard thing to talk about here too.  But, please do.


I really don't think anyone is implying it's hard to hear or understand from what I've read.  I get the impression that there are some that feel the one size fits all approach in regards to listening or (whatever other things) quality isn't the best way to look at things. Maybe it's not the point but I can see where it would seem that way.

I'm sure Brian wouldn't stand behind playing back tapes through a tv or some budget amp as superior to even a modest setup playing back a cd or digital download.

So much of a rabbit hole to go down imo when it comes to a nice sounding experience , which would include the actual experiences that can affect the enjoyment of any track.

I've had wonderful experiences (sonic and emotional) in the past, listening on a rigged up playback system with records that ,in my experience today, sound less than great.  Today I couldn't  re-create that experience no matter how hard I try because the recording can't be had anywhere that has the quality I've grown used to since and,  maybe more importantly, the experience of that specific time and space, can't be played over again.

I guess inversely you could put me in some hi-fi nirvana room and I may be too stressed about some argument earlier with the wife or how I'm going to make my next mortgage payment to fully appreciate or even enjoy whatever may be playing.. Taking weed out of the equation anyhow.... But I suppose that could make it even worse in some cases....lol

Too many angles and thoughts to sift through to get any point across that may fit this particular discussion and I'm fearful of getting off the beaten path with others but, it's a win-win anyhow. Good company all around as far as I can tell ....

I do understand the concept that we should be able to enjoy sound at high spl without that urge to turn it down but, I've always attributed this to many more things than just digital/analog . Sources vary for any particular song and I would expect some tv station could have invested in good sources and some other station maybe procured worse.

I'm not convinced that a simple thing as a proper DA converter from a tv (if that's an option) to an ample powered amplifier to keep it in it's sweet spot, to some decent speakers wouldn't increase the listening experience greatly from an audio perspective.
Could even throw in some sound panels around the living room...

But, the tv station source may prove that to be futile I suppose..

All I know is I have heard some cds that would rival some vinyl playback and it's too much of a rabbit hole there as well to the reasons for this... and then I suppose it could come down to system specifics past this. Then the mood of the experience once again....

Brutal accuracy is especially important in those times when you've finally gotten that soothing sound you've searched so long for and want it to be archived and played back... nothing more frustrating than having no way to  do this or know you're doing this.







Re: I Drink
« Reply #32 on: June 14, 2020, 11:39:11 AM »
Scott,

Thanks for contributing at length to the discussion.  I appreciate that.

Brian did say he couldn't quite put his finger or ear on on it.  And I'm saying it's definitely not cut and dry.  So, let's chat.

Listener Duration/Exposure Time
Tolerance
Stress Level
Number of Sexual Interactions
Number of Arguments
Severity of Arguments
Number of Conversations
Length of Conversations
Number of spontaneous dances
Number of times people laugh
Decibal level of conversations
Level of feeling of contentment
Level of feeling that things are going to be okay
Amount of distraction
How many people are listening together

And on and on... these are the things I'm interested in when it comes to playback devices, playback experience and the quality of content, and the way people interact with one another these days.  The vast majority of people accept that technology advances and things become more efficient and cheaper.  I happen to think that's not good for the world as a whole and there are far less people who consider music an experience nowadays.  It's a backdrop for most.  Average Joe or Joanne doesn't care about modifying their playback system so that it reduces their stress level, they want a cheap system or something that is marketed as state of the art at a bargain.  My point is that you can do better than a digital stream through a cheap converter, through a cheap power amp through a cheap speaker.  It's our responsibility to do better by the listener.  We already have analog designs that are absolutely phenomenal, and no matter what your cup of tea, analog is always required.  And something that was designed with components that have tolerances of +/-10 to 20% are more tolerant by nature.  There's no need for .1% precision.  I believe it's all about compromise and not trying to be the best on paper.  0.01% THD vs 0.00001% THD.  The latter is not only meaningless, it's not in line with human emotion.

The vast majority of people don't realize they're gradually becoming robotic.

Was New York Dave's one bottle tube preamp an elegant design?  Never tried it myself but I think he worked within limitations to come up with something nice.  Put it up against a INA217 or a THAT 1512/1510.  I'm sure the one bottle would win over more hearts.

Then, take a power amp from 1947 and put it up against the power amp that's found inside typical high tech devices of today, and see what people prefer to be exposed to day in, and day out.

The trouble is they can't pay for it because the demand has shifted.  Not because it's not good equipment.  Again, I'm not talking fuzzy, sound fx.  Much more subtle than you guys are giving me credit for..

PS.
I didn't once say that everyone here is a spec head.  That's a demonstration of ignorance and putting words in my mouth.  But, there are some here who provoke fires and that behaviour is typically referred to as Trolling.  I say to all - don't be a troll, and don't show up for ten seconds and be deliberately short as to provoke.  I'm not seeking anyone's approval by the way.  I'm having a conversation.  A passionate one.

Adam

ruairioflaherty

Re: I Drink
« Reply #33 on: June 14, 2020, 01:46:57 PM »
Come in with something about the bigger picture I'm talking about.

I've read and re-read your posts and I don't doubt your passion but your questions and arguments are a jumble of thoughts and conflations.

I've spent my whole adult life, 26 years working in music, trying to figure out why things sound the way they do.  You're making assumptions about who we are collectively because of the answers you are getting. Ask a better, more focussed question and I think you'll get better answers.

If the community here was interested in cheaper and easier we wouldn't be doing DIY, we're interested in better.

The bigger issues you are driving at are serious and have a massive impact on our ability to engage emotionally with music and with each other.  I work in a money no object mastering room, with the best gear we can buy/build and better clients every day.  The number one challenge I face is focusing my attention so I can really hear in a deep way.  My phone does more damage to the listening experience than the amplifier THD, but it's a somewhat necessary evil to be connected to my clients. 

Older cats here will all have fallen in love with music through terrible sounding systems, music is resilient.  I think attention is less so.

Good luck.

 


Re: I Drink
« Reply #34 on: June 14, 2020, 02:04:17 PM »
I've read and re-read your posts and I don't doubt your passion but your questions and arguments are a jumble of thoughts and conflations.

I've spent my whole adult life, 26 years working in music, trying to figure out why things sound the way they do.  You're making assumptions about who we are collectively because of the answers you are getting. Ask a better, more focussed question and I think you'll get better answers.

If the community here was interested in cheaper and easier we wouldn't be doing DIY, we're interested in better.

The bigger issues you are driving at are serious and have a massive impact on our ability to engage emotionally with music and with each other.  I work in a money no object mastering room, with the best gear we can buy/build and better clients every day.  The number one challenge I face is focusing my attention so I can really hear in a deep way.  My phone does more damage to the listening experience than the amplifier THD, but it's a somewhat necessary evil to be connected to my clients. 

Older cats here will all have fallen in love with music through terrible sounding systems, music is resilient.  I think attention is less so.

Good luck.

There's that word better again.
What's better?

I can't tell you the number of times I've seen people here give the advice to use a IC because it's "better," or because it's cheaper.  Or telling someone that a capacitor dielectric doesn't impact sound, etc, etc, etc.  Did you see my PS. in my last post?  You're exhibiting trolling, higher than thou, condescending behaviour.  I'd like to think you're better than that.

Point out good digital.  Point out a solution.

I honestly could care less what studio room you work in, but I do appreciate it when people stop by for conversation without telling people they are imagining things, or they need to ask better questions, or ... fill the blank.  You can come back and try to look cool, and talk about your long career and hunger for better.  Define it.  This isn't just an attention issue, and the sibilance on some of these precise designs are enough to make your eyes bleed.  Transfer of energy practically non existent.

Good luck?  Yeah, okay.  If you weren't so dismissive I'd probably show you a little more respect.  You think I'm some hobbyist that doesn't know what he's talking about.  I'm not asking you to educate me.  I could teach you a few things.

Adam

Re: I Drink
« Reply #35 on: June 14, 2020, 02:13:23 PM »
Just reading Analag's thread from the beginning and trying to keep up.  Personally,  I quit drinking.

Edit:   Sorry, that last bit should have read:  "I quit, drinking..."

Gold

Re: I Drink
« Reply #36 on: June 14, 2020, 02:36:15 PM »
I like listening to records for most of the reasons mentioned. I can listen for longer without fatigue. It has a certain quality that draws you in.

As someone who makes them I know that because of the technical limitations great care is required to make a great sounding record. These limitations tend to correspond to what the ear likes to hear in recorded music. I like to say its weaknesses are its strengths.

The kids dig vinyl. At least the super nerd music kind. I wonder how much tastes have changed? If all you hear is current common playback systems will other types sound wrong to those growing up now?

ruairioflaherty

Re: I Drink
« Reply #37 on: June 14, 2020, 03:18:41 PM »
There's that word better again.
What's better?

I can't tell you the number of times I've seen people here give the advice to use a IC because it's "better," or because it's cheaper.  Or telling someone that a capacitor dielectric doesn't impact sound, etc, etc, etc.  Did you see my PS. in my last post?  You're exhibiting trolling, higher than thou, condescending behaviour.  I'd like to think you're better than that.

Point out good digital.  Point out a solution.

I honestly could care less what studio room you work in, but I do appreciate it when people stop by for conversation without telling people they are imagining things, or they need to ask better questions, or ... fill the blank.  You can come back and try to look cool, and talk about your long career and hunger for better.  Define it.  This isn't just an attention issue, and the sibilance on some of these precise designs are enough to make your eyes bleed.  Transfer of energy practically non existent.

Good luck?  Yeah, okay.  If you weren't so dismissive I'd probably show you a little more respect.  You think I'm some hobbyist that doesn't know what he's talking about.  I'm not asking you to educate me.  I could teach you a few things.

Adam

Hey man,

My wishing  you good luck was genuine, good luck on your search.

If you actually want to engage, rather than arguing with who you think I am or we are as a forum then PM me, let's get on the phone.

Cheers,
Ruairi


pucho812

Re: I Drink
« Reply #38 on: June 14, 2020, 03:50:57 PM »
while you guys are arguing, I just watched a person on you tube consume 6 liters of gatoraid in 4 minutes.  Gatoraid  for those that don't know is a sports drink.
At any rate 6 liters of this stuff at once cannot be good for a person.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tbBzXKN32Sk
You tell me whar a man gits his corn pone, en I'll tell you what his 'pinions is.

Re: I Drink
« Reply #39 on: June 14, 2020, 08:18:57 PM »
Holy hell ,
If someone was shooting up junk or smoking crack they'd get banned from youtube instantly  , yet apparently someone doing themselves harm with overindulgence in sugary drinks to get millions of hits and its all fine and dandy ,
Social media is a f**king freak show , 15 minutes of fame for all the wrong reasons and then you die , its amounting to a hijacking of the human spirit.

I'm steering clear of the other discussion , too devisive :)

I will however raise a glass to diversity of thought ,
Cheers all,

David.




 

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