boji

Re: Campaign Shock Troops
« Reply #200 on: July 31, 2020, 12:25:51 PM »
Quote
It's always the job of the scientist to study a subject. It's the job of the politician to inform themselves about the science.
Earlier I asked how to keep people from reframing issues, the answer was (I think) people who do science.  Who exactly?



living sounds

Re: Campaign Shock Troops
« Reply #201 on: July 31, 2020, 12:51:18 PM »
Earlier I asked how to keep people from reframing issues, the answer was (I think) people who do science.  Who exactly?

Good question, and not how I understood your earlier post.

And not an easy answer. What do you think?

JohnRoberts

Re: Campaign Shock Troops
« Reply #202 on: July 31, 2020, 01:16:03 PM »
It's always the job of the scientist to study a subject. It's the job of the politician to inform themselves about the science.
Finally something of substance.

The job of the scientist is search out understanding of how things work. Generally this involves proposing a thesis, performing experiments, and confirmation or rejection of the thesis based on experimental results. Science is not about most popular theory, but undeniable hard evidence.

The job of politicians (legislators in the US at least) is mainly about making budgets and using that control of the pursestrings to apply leverage for oversight over the other branches. Politicians are traditionally not very well versed in science or math. To address scientific questions they must find experts, seek out their opinions, then deliberate to resolve differences. Economic impact, and power (control) often overwhelm such debates. 

The function and role of government has been well debated for decades/centuries. My opinion should be well known by now.
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As for Facism and Communism - both are totalitarian in nature. Well-informed people shouldn't argue for either.
ding ding ding,,, we agree... prosit. 8)

JR
Don't only half-ass tune your drums. Visit https://circularscience.com to hear what properly "cleared" drums sound like.

boji

Re: Campaign Shock Troops
« Reply #203 on: July 31, 2020, 01:26:27 PM »
Quote
Good question, and not how I understood your earlier post.
And not an easy answer. What do you think?

Thanks. I only focused on it because earlier the petition was for the left to 'bare up' and not let the other side reframe issues.  Yet I question the solvency in grouping people by identity except for its use in framing issues (class however, is a different beast). It tends to mythologise groups into camps of good and bad so to create personal meaning and identity.  But to say this framing mode is a self-terminating solution isn't making the impact it should.  Restating belief to an imagined opponent similarly has no calming effect (painfully obvious everywhere).   For this reason I suggest personal study/rapprochement that demythologises the bad camps, with a focus on the level of the individual. But it's not enjoyable, not animating, and the media finds no financial interest in supporting it. It is a narrow door that leads to peace.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2020, 02:35:37 PM by boji »

living sounds

Re: Campaign Shock Troops
« Reply #204 on: July 31, 2020, 02:34:04 PM »
Thanks. I only focused on it because earlier the petition was for the left to 'bare up' and not let the other side reframe issues.  Yet I question the solvency in grouping people by identity except for its use in framing issues (class however, is a different beast). It tends to mythologise groups into camps of good and bad so to create personal meaning and identity.  But to say this framing mode is a self-terminating solution isn't making the impact it should.  Restating belief to an imagined opponent similarly has no calming effect (painfully obvious everywhere).   For this reason I suggest personal study/rapprochement that demythologises the bad camps, with a focus on the level of the individual. But it's not enjoyable, not animating, and the media finds no financial interest in supporting it. It is a narrow door that leads to peace.

I don't think it's a solution, it just helps to make sense of a problem. Authoritarianism is real and Fasciscm is real. The more interesting questions are how we got to this point and what the solutions are. We can't afford another world war to deal with the problem...

I also think it's clear that the rising inequality of income and wealth has laid the foundation for it, and changing course here is a big part of the solution. I hope Covid-19 serves as a catalyst so we can skip the wars this time. A shift is already under way:

https://news.gallup.com/poll/316094/conservatism-down-start-2020.aspx

boji

Re: Campaign Shock Troops
« Reply #205 on: July 31, 2020, 02:56:47 PM »
Quote
I don't think it's a solution, it just helps to make sense of a problem.
Well, surely one must come before the other.  It is true that Authoritarianism and Fascism are effectively real, but how would one go about adopting such desires consciously? Or more importantly, what protective memes are used to keep one from being persuaded to act fascistically?

Edit: (Neither political side has, nor should claim exclusive rights to such memes, yet they do, exhaustively.)
« Last Edit: July 31, 2020, 03:13:48 PM by boji »

living sounds

Re: Campaign Shock Troops
« Reply #206 on: August 01, 2020, 08:50:06 AM »
Well, surely one must come before the other.  It is true that Authoritarianism and Fascism are effectively real, but how would one go about adopting such desires consciously? Or more importantly, what protective memes are used to keep one from being persuaded to act fascistically?

Edit: (Neither political side has, nor should claim exclusive rights to such memes, yet they do, exhaustively.)

Through regulation, put in place by democratic consent. And by that I mean make sure that money doesn't equal speech, make sure the feedback mechanisms (taxation) work so inequality gets lowered to an acceptable level. Desperate and economically insecure people turn to religion, conspiracy theories and ideological isms. Strengthen mandatory education, encourage scientific literacy - badly educated people make bad decisions. Regulate and limit for-profit-lying (=advertising). Prioritise investment in long-term public goals like basic research over short-term private gains.

Our economies lately has been based on people buying things they don't need with money they don't have, in the process ultimately destroying the environment they all live in. It should be very obvious to anyone without ideological blindfolds that this is an unsustainable path.

The majority of the current younger generation understands these things already, now the rest of us needs to get on board.

JohnRoberts

Re: Campaign Shock Troops
« Reply #207 on: August 01, 2020, 09:17:26 AM »
Through regulation, put in place by democratic consent.
Sadly modern regulation escapes the democratic consent part where legislators create skeletal laws and leave it to the bureaucracy to flesh out the regulations. This is good or bad depending on your faith in bureaucrats.
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And by that I mean make sure that money doesn't equal speech,
That is easier said than done, but we have seen a parade of obscenely wealthy individuals wilt under the bright light of public vetting for high office.
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make sure the feedback mechanisms (taxation) work so inequality gets lowered to an acceptable level.
This will just make everybody equally poor... (think Cuba, Venezuela, etc.)  Taxation is authorized for the common good, like building bridges and roads, not punishing richy rich for success, and rewarding sloth. We can only insure equal opportunity, not equal outcomes.

We already see the economic disincentive of too large government payments, where a number of workers are receiving more money in unemployment compensation, than they were getting paid at their regular jobs before COVID. Now employers are having trouble hiring workers back (why work for less money? duh). This economic disincentive was caused by the urgency to get the legislation passed not giving them the luxury of time to meter the compensation for different regional pay scales.

That original legislation has expired without renewal because one side likes this unintended consequence and wants to keep it and more.  I suspect the conservatives will cave again and let go of their desire to include immunity for small business, to protect them from the lawyers who are already salivating. 
Quote
Desperate and economically insecure people turn to religion, conspiracy theories and ideological isms. Strengthen mandatory education, encourage scientific literacy - badly educated people make bad decisions. Regulate and limit for-profit-lying (=advertising). Prioritise investment in long-term public goals like basic research over short-term private gains.
That sounds a little too simple and like bad science fiction... (mandatory education.. Isn't primary education already mandatory?).
Quote
Our economies lately has been based on people buying things they don't need with money they don't have, in the process ultimately destroying the environment they all live in. It should be very obvious to anyone without ideological blindfolds that this is an unsustainable path.
its called free will...
Quote
The majority of the current younger generation understands these things already, now the rest of us needs to get on board.
Yup I was so much smarter when I was young...  ::)

JR
Don't only half-ass tune your drums. Visit https://circularscience.com to hear what properly "cleared" drums sound like.

boji

Re: Campaign Shock Troops
« Reply #208 on: August 01, 2020, 11:55:21 AM »
Quote
Through regulation, put in place by democratic consent

Don't think you're reading me. Protective memes are memes that  try to keep political defections from occurring, or are used as rules that tend to limit the boundaries of correct thought or behavior.   

A meme is about as unregulatable an idea delivery vehicle as we're going to find, save the things that put you in jail for spreading.
« Last Edit: August 01, 2020, 06:31:09 PM by boji »

Re: Campaign Shock Troops
« Reply #209 on: August 01, 2020, 12:01:00 PM »
The thread is about Campaign Shock Troops so:

I see people who are quick to say it's just one or two bad apples within law enforcement and not to blaim the whole system,
are then turning around and blaming *ALL* protestors for the actions of a minority of anarchists at the protests.

Anyway, if I read the reports correctly, since the feds have not been gassing everyone in sight and shooting projectiles at people -  in other words they have now left - the protests in Portland have been peaceful.



Note to self:  Don't let c**ts wind you up


JohnRoberts

Re: Campaign Shock Troops
« Reply #210 on: August 01, 2020, 01:45:12 PM »
The thread is about Campaign Shock Troops so:

I see people who are quick to say it's just one or two bad apples within law enforcement and not to blaim the whole system,
are then turning around and blaming *ALL* protestors for the actions of a minority of anarchists at the protests.

Anyway, if I read the reports correctly, since the feds have not been gassing everyone in sight and shooting projectiles at people -  in other words they have now left - the protests in Portland have been peaceful.
There may be some difference made by the 60 people arrested by the federal agents and removed from the scrum.

It also made a difference after local police declared rioting and made arrests of law breakers.

Nobody minds peaceful protests, and the federal agents are more than happy to leave. (I assume). 

JR





Don't only half-ass tune your drums. Visit https://circularscience.com to hear what properly "cleared" drums sound like.


JohnRoberts

Re: Campaign Shock Troops
« Reply #212 on: August 04, 2020, 10:15:39 AM »
https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/many-americans-are-convinced-crime-is-rising-in-the-u-s-theyre-wrong/
Those stupid Americans.  ::)

Yes there has been a wholesale reduction in crime over last few decades, but recently the homicide trend appears to be increasing.

Quote from: wash examiner
Nearly three-fourths of the top 50 largest cities in the United States have experienced a double-digit rise in homicides so far this year.

An analysis by the Wall Street Journal, which was published on Sunday, showed that homicides, shootings, and gun violence in the 50 largest cities rose in 2020, with murders, in particular increasing by 24% so far this year, to 3,612. Thirty-six of the 50 cities have experienced at least a 10% rise in homicides.

While the murder rate has increased in a majority of the largest cities, other types of crime, including burglary and rape, are down this year.
So I guess it matters what kind of crime you are talking about. Rape may be down in part because bars and clubs are closed due to Covid. In recent years some common street crimes have been decriminalized

Other trends that may have some influence, like thousands of inmates released early from prisons.
Quote from: town hall
Hundreds of inmates were released from Riker's Island in New York City to prevent the spread of the coronavirus in the prison. Officials knew the risks. And those fears have been realized, hundreds of times. New reporting from Melissa Russo reveals that at least 250 prisoners out of the 2,500 who were released early have gone on to commit at least 450 more crimes.

Another factor is bail reform (cough). One of the two men seen on camera assaulting police (including NYPD police chief) was released without bail. The police were protecting a peaceful unity march across the Brooklyn bridge when assaulted.

 NYPD retirements are up 400%.  Mayor DeBlasio disbanded the NYC plain clothes street crimes unit that was successfully policing street gangs and effectively getting guns off the street. DeBlasio reduced funding of the police department (by some $1B in the Defund police movement).

NYC enjoyed decades of falling crime rates thanks to proactive policing ("Broken windows" policy). I can't predict the future, but would not be so quick to dismiss these recent trends, especially in large cities.

JR
Don't only half-ass tune your drums. Visit https://circularscience.com to hear what properly "cleared" drums sound like.

living sounds

Re: Campaign Shock Troops
« Reply #213 on: August 04, 2020, 10:39:28 AM »
The short-term effects due to the Coronavirus are a statistical abberation.

But the interesting part is not about the rise and fall of crime, but the misconceptions people have about reality. It shows room for improvement in the reals of media, politics and education.

BTW, the same is true for other countries dominated by sensationalised for-profit media (probably most countries, I guess).


 

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