Campaign Shock Troops
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Winston OBoogie
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Winston OBoogie
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Matador
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John, you are teaching a master class in whataboutism these days. ;D.JohnRoberts said:
boji
Well-known member
Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I think it was said/implied that suffering and violence was only being leveled on protestors. Arguments of preponderance aside, is this true?
Winston OBoogie
Well-known member
Police Officer: "Who ya gonna believe, me or the multiple videos shot from different angles in 1080p?"
Matador
Well-known member
Well, surely there have been police injured during all of this. Maybe someone will link some gruesome injuries like Winston did above. At bare minimum, it must be exhausting swinging a polycarbonate baton all night long, and I'm sure trigger fingers are sore. Gas canisters and rubber bullets don't shoot themselves!
The problem is, we can't sweep aside arguments of preponderance, because otherwise we end up conflating this:
with this:
as being exactly the same thing.
The problem is, we can't sweep aside arguments of preponderance, because otherwise we end up conflating this:
with this:
as being exactly the same thing.
Winston OBoogie
Well-known member
Matador said:
Except the guys dressed as trees are "valiant" and the moms "violent" :
Since there is no caravan of refugees heading for the Mexico/US border, I suppose there needs to be a new threat to keep Trumpers up at night.
boji
Well-known member
Not sweeping aside preponderance, its evidence has already been presented to maximum effect. An effect I might add would make any honorable child 'tree-up' should their mother take a projectile.
pucho812
Well-known member
living sounds said:
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/amp/world-us-canada-53224445
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nytimes.com/2020/06/29/us/seattle-protests-CHOP-CHAZ-autonomous-zone.amp.html
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.foxnews.com/us/seattle-business-owner-robbery-suspect-police-no-show.amp
Want more?
Winston OBoogie
Well-known member
pucho812 said:
I, for one, am not advocating police free zones. Just better policing.
But. couple of points regarding CHOP:
It came about after an unprecedented number of complaints against Seattle P.D. for using violent and excessive force during the George Floyd/BLM protests (18,000 complaints received, yes 18K). Many of the acts were caught on video. Public trust in S.P.D. was not good. Still isn't.
Both the Seattle P.D. and Fire department, as well as city officials, issued statements that they *would* attend calls to the CHOP zone that were for serious or life threatening situations. They then didn't attend of course.
Seattle P.D. blamed not being able to attend the 1st shooting incident (where one person died) on aggressive protestors not letting them in. Video disproved this. And after releasing the 911 recordings it was established that it was a communication problem between S.P.D. and S.F.D. which allowed a person to die.
The fire in the auto parts store started by the anarchist happened outside the CHOP zone. What was the excuse for not attending that incident?
Edit: that was a rhetorical question of course. I can't think of any good reason they didn't attend other than some form of racketeering-like payback.
living sounds
Well-known member
pucho812 said:
"murders, assaults, rapes, and extortions"? Not in the bits I can read (NYT is behind a paywall).
So the BBC story about two teenagers shot from today happened last night, which means when you wrote the quoted texts they were still alive and well.
The story about the shopkeeper happened outside the "zone" and relies entirely on claims by a purported victim to FoxNews. It sounds plausible, but we just don't know, do we?
There isn't anything about rapes and extortions in the articles.
Anyway, we should not allow to let our focus allow to slip and the right-wing to re-frame the issues. The problem is not a few isolated spots in a few cities. Part of that "problem" is likely not even real, as evidenced by the story about the right-wing-biker-gang who where the ones actually starting violence in one of these areas.
The real problems are and remain systemic racism, inequality and corruption of the political process. Even more authoritarianism only makes these problems worse.
boji
Well-known member
How shall we not allow people to reframe issues when the right-wing frame of mind is unworthy of study/rapprochement?
living sounds
Well-known member
boji said:
Oh, it has been studied alright. I think scientists have a pretty good idea how these things work.
In a nutshell, economic displacement, rapid societal change, a loss of cultural homogeniety and marginalized political representation allow for a subset of the population to be radicalized into conspiratorial authoritarian thinking by exploitative media, politicians and these days even by foreign interest peddlers.
Fascism cannot be met half-way. What can be met are the economic needs of the people left behind by the late-term turbocapitalism we now live in. The ramblings of demagogues don't fall on fertile soil where people can participate economically and where their legitimate interests are deemed worthy of consideration, where their vote does actually count.
This has happened before, at a similar crossroads in the 30s the US elected FDR and what followed was a golden era of equality and progress.
And anyone who actually thinks that things went well before Covid-19 hit needs to take a good look at the numbers.
living sounds
Well-known member
scott2000 said:
Acountability sounds like progress to me.
Winston OBoogie
Well-known member
I mentioned further up that no federal law enforcement had been held to account in any way, and that I wouldn't be holding my breath waiting for that to change. I'm still not.
boji said:
I hope you can understand there is a lot of difference between the "the right-wing frame of mind" and fascism. Just like there is a difference between the moral majority and the KKK.
I find it funny that after all these years, the non-existing commies are still blamed for... well, for everything, really. I mean, the CIA meddles in a lot of foreign nations. Bolsonaro is at the wheel in Brasil, because of the CIA. Meddling with elections is in the handbook.
When the Russians meddle with US elections, through legal means, it's a problem. When Israel does the same, it's OK.
Meanwhile, internal US problems don't get solved. Infra is rotting away, moving production back to the US is a flop, relations with almost every nation on the planet are... euhm... stressed?
This forms a very welcome environment for fascism. Fascism, that's never been far away. It's never been eradicated, because of that bizarre fear of commies.
boji
Well-known member
LS
CY
(Pardon the personal opinion, but whenever I read someone adding the word fascism to their arguments, it usually is making a case based on intuition. It's difficult to ignore that McCarthyism is partially defined by that method of persuasion.)
So it's the job of the scientist, not the politician to study the right wing, and locate political concessions?
CY
If fascism is only a result of the fear of communism, is the solution to relax the definitions of communism or be more accepting of it? Wouldn't forms of McCarthyism be resurrected to combat it, which in turn would provide more reasons to assert that fascism is on the rise?
(Pardon the personal opinion, but whenever I read someone adding the word fascism to their arguments, it usually is making a case based on intuition. It's difficult to ignore that McCarthyism is partially defined by that method of persuasion.)
living sounds
Well-known member
boji said:
It's always the job of the scientist to study a subject. It's the job of the politician to inform themselves about the science.
As for Facism and Communism - both are totalitarian in nature. Well-informed people shouldn't argue for either.
