bluebird

Our DIY family, politics, and scott2000
« on: August 01, 2020, 01:05:29 AM »
I think we have to start looking at each other as a family more than we have been. Dysfunctional of course. But a family never the less.

Special kids, crazy uncles, religious moms, loud cousins... The whole shebang in this virtual BBQ.  We are all good people with a diverse experience set that makes for very interesting conversation. That's why we all come here. The Brewery is especially tight nit. Lets not let our political views make us sick. We can do this. We can have a conversation and still be kind and understanding. Its really hard sometimes but its important we try as hard as we can.

I'd like to vote scott2000 as member of the year for being kind and open to other opinions while holding true to his own principals. Nobody's perfect but a good example to follow.

I know these things are important to people and the urge to "fight for whats right" is strong, but this is a DIY electronics forum and nothing is going to happen after the "fight" except for hurt feelings and angry people. No policy changes, no hearts and minds won over, no justice. Just a bunch of grumbling.  So why fight so hard?

Now to all my liberal brethren, again, no need to be aggressive when discussing politics, not one bit. The facts are well represented here and its obvious president Trump is not going to be in office after November. Anyone can come back and quote me if I'm wrong after the election, but the countries demographics are changing and people are fired up. There's too much energy and momentum to have what happened in 2016 happen again. Remember president Trump lost the popular vote and nobody was trying. There was complacency like never before, and now the opposite is true. It won't even be close. So relax.

The conservatives and independents should be able to express they're political opinions and not get trampled or yelled at. Without the opposing viewpoints we would have a boring echo chamber. A lot of the people with conservative viewpoints have bowed out and disappeared. 
A while back political discussions all but petered out. I was a bummer because I missed being informed by both sides.
Now its on again, but a little lopsided.

It would be nice if everyone felt safe here, and oddly enough, I would like to see more conservative opinions without all the vitriol...

And if all that sounds too snowflaky or mushy or whatever, so be it. I had to say it.

Keep talking! Keep posting! scott2000 for president!

-ian


gevermil

Re: Our DIY family, politics, and scott2000
« Reply #1 on: August 01, 2020, 05:51:48 AM »
nice post

gyraf

Re: Our DIY family, politics, and scott2000
« Reply #2 on: August 01, 2020, 08:40:03 AM »
Good one. Thanks.

I'd vote for him
..note to self: don't let Harman run your company..

JohnRoberts

Re: Our DIY family, politics, and scott2000
« Reply #3 on: August 01, 2020, 09:18:59 AM »
A nice sentiment....

Besides Scott I think we have a remarkable group here...

JR
It's nice to be nice....

Re: Our DIY family, politics, and scott2000
« Reply #4 on: August 01, 2020, 11:01:37 AM »
I think we have to start looking at each other as a family more than we have been. Dysfunctional of course. But a family never the less.

Now to all my liberal brethren, again, no need to be aggressive when discussing politics, not one bit. The facts are well represented here and its obvious president Trump is not going to be in office after November. Anyone can come back and quote me if I'm wrong after the election, but the countries demographics are changing and people are fired up. There's too much energy and momentum to have what happened in 2016 happen again. Remember president Trump lost the popular vote and nobody was trying. There was complacency like never before, and now the opposite is true. It won't even be close. So relax.

-ian

Do NOT underestimate what could happen on election day.  Very clever people are shouting from the rooftops (i.e. Stacey Abrams, President Obama) over the importance over this vote and Bluebird says "just relax."  Tell that to people being shot in the face with 'rubber' or real bullets.  Over confidence is what happened the last time around.  Also, do not underestimate the power of evil.  There are still a lot of followers of the current US President.

The truth of the matter is, this forum is not a family.  It's far from it.  It's not even a bunch of good friends.  It's a bunch of people at keyboards who think they vaguely know one another.  Sure, some people probably know each other in person, but that's the exception.  Maybe some have developed a rapport because of sharing of knowledge, anecdotes, or helped one another with a PCB.  That's great, that's lovely.  Maybe you even feel some affection for the people at the other end of the keyboard, which is normal.  IN MY OPINION, it's not appropriate to debate family members or coworkers, or contemporaries, or whatever you want to call them, over certain topics.  By not appropriate, I mean, if you hope to get along.

I think the only way for this forum to maintain a positive, and productive way forward is to ban political and religious debates. +1 if you agree.

You can easily be friends or Internet friends with someone over common interest, or even over differing views about something like school curriculum, but once you learn they don't mind if kids are detained and separated from their families at the border, things get weird and you don't want to associate, or be associated, with those people.  In fact, you can easily lose respect for those people, and fast.  This is particularly true if you find out there's no way to ever convince those people their views are radical, or downright mean.  Forum member Desol thinks George Floyd's murder was just an accident.  I don't need to know that.. but if I do see something like that being posted, it has to be addressed.  Just like this post.  Everyone should sense the urgency and importance of what is going on, and get out to vote.  If I remember you told Desol he should be quiet.

So, do you want to be complacent, sit back and relax, and let this place (as simple Internet forum) be a haven for negativity, or get everyone back on track around the common interest?

There's no way to have everyone come together as one big happy family... not with politics and religious discussions/arguing.

Politicians are sometimes able to get along even with differing viewpoints, but that's when they're discussing opposing views about sensible things, and strategy planning for more normal times.  Right now though, things are extremely tense and weird because of the current US White House administration, and divisions are more and more evident.  The current US administration has to go!  They are corrupt, and incompetent.  That's a fact, not an opinion.

They're making the world sick and this forum is reflecting it.  They're giving people the okay to be bitter, to be cruel, to lie, to cheat, to oppress, to be racist.  Bringing out the worst in a society, in our world.  That has to be fought back against.

I've always found Scott2000 to be a nice forum member, from what I can tell in his posting anyway.  I know nothing of him outside of a few Internet posts, so I'd be assuming a lot if I said he should be President.

GET OUT AND VOTE.  It's the most important thing you can do.  DO NOT RELAX ABOUT IT.

ps. The Drawing Board is the heart of the GroupDIY forum in my opinion.  People sharing.  People learning about a specific topic.

-A

boji

Re: Our DIY family, politics, and scott2000
« Reply #5 on: August 01, 2020, 11:13:57 AM »
Edit:  For spirit of the op, I'm not going to respond to the directly above, but I want to  ;D

There's saying 'focus on the level of the individual', and showing/acting on behalf of the individual; hats off to you Blue! And Scott, for his embedded kindness.

I do love everyone here, btw. Islands in the stream.

« Last Edit: August 01, 2020, 11:24:30 AM by boji »

Re: Our DIY family, politics, and scott2000
« Reply #6 on: August 01, 2020, 11:26:40 AM »
Edit:  For spirit of the op, I'm not going to respond to the directly above, but I want to  ;D

There's saying 'focus on the level of the individual', and showing/acting on behalf of the individual; hats off to you Blue! And Scott, for his embedded kindness.

I do love everyone here, btw. Islands in the stream.
Feel free.

Re: Our DIY family, politics, and scott2000
« Reply #7 on: August 01, 2020, 11:54:52 AM »
 While I appreciate the sentiment of the OP., I don't thinkI can agree with everything.
But I'm not sure I really care any more.

To be honest,  the illusion of family on here left me a few weeks ago.
Not in the Brewery, but in the Drawing Room,  during a thread on mixers.

I was treated, in my opinion,  very unfairly by John Roberts.
 I was told so by another moderator who had wanted to say something but felt unable to.

That's when I decided I'm done participating in anything worthwhile.

I also find it a bit strange that the person whose political opinions I find most odious (not that anyone isn't entitled to an opinion) is also  a moderator who has the power to be warning people about things said in the Brewery.

Also, if I see someone who expresses an opinion that it's funny when folks are shot in the eye with a rubber bullet, I'm going to say  what I think of that opinion.  And I'm even less inclined to be nicer to that person.

Whatever, I'm probably done here in any meaningfully  anyway,

YFMMV.
Jeffrey Toobin: "This is the most embarrassing week ever."

Rudy Giuliani: "Hold my pants..."

boji

Re: Our DIY family, politics, and scott2000
« Reply #8 on: August 01, 2020, 12:23:36 PM »
If I may sidestep (but appreciate) your grievance WB, for a moment,  I strongly get the sense if we didn't have a conservative-leaning mod of any stripe, this forum's brewery would have collapsed into a leftist camp so fully as to make conversation uninteresting.

Edit: Brewery is full of open-mindedness and polarizing opinion- which is as the (public) world...was.  For most of the rest of internet public forums, the zombies have already broken past the fence and routed-out free thinking.  Hence why I say we are islands in the stream. It's worth keeping imo, with minimal need for regulation or silencing of forms of speech, so to promote the exchange of ideas.

Edit#2 It fascinates me that people have nearly limitless doors in front of them that they must choose to open or close, and if they find themselves in a room they don't like, the answer is to lock out all people from that room afterwards because they didn't like what was in it.
« Last Edit: August 01, 2020, 12:51:24 PM by boji »

mjrippe

Re: Our DIY family, politics, and scott2000
« Reply #9 on: August 01, 2020, 12:27:46 PM »
Dear Aunts, Uncles, Cousins, Brothers, Sisters, and Grandparents,

In general I steer clear of any political Brewery topic.  Why?  Not because I don't care about politics - I most certainly do.  But because I have spent enough time online (about 40 years at this point, yes really) to know that what bluebird is saying is true here as it is everywhere else.  People who engage in argument by choice sometimes don't know what they are getting into and sometimes cannot emotionally handle the results of a strong counter argument or an unkind personal attack.  People get hurt and hurt each other.  I have no interest in being on either side of that.  So why am I commenting?

I have found this to be the only forum that I regularly visit that really keeps the BS in the Brewery for the most part, so one can avoid it if they want to.  All the other areas are full of kind people helping each other and sharing knowledge and resources freely.  Yes, there are moments of bad behavior (I may have had some myself in my boozing years) but they are either ignored or dealt with by the community.  Rarely have I seen moderator action required for more than a "move this topic" sort of issue. 

There are also folks here who I consider friends or esteemed colleagues, who may have differing opinions from mine on anything from capacitors to capitalism.  I prefer to "keep things professional" and treat everyone the same with the hopes that they are doing likewise.  Again, these are my choices and you are free to do what you please.  I am not trying to convert anyone but rather sharing how I get the most out of this wonderful place.

All my best to all my crazy GDIY family,
Mike Rippe


Re: Our DIY family, politics, and scott2000
« Reply #10 on: August 01, 2020, 12:49:16 PM »
Edit: Brewery is full of open-mindedness and polarizing opinion- which is as the (public) world...was.  For most of the rest of internet public forums, the zombies have already broken past the fence and routed-out free thinking.  Hence why I say we are islands in the stream. It's worth keeping imo, with minimal need for regulation or silencing of forms of speech, so to promote the exchange of ideas.

I'll point out again that it was Bluebird just weeks ago who tried to silence Desol.  It seems hypocritical to me for him to make this post today.

+1 if you wish to ban political, and religious debates, and all reference to audio phools, or all poking fun at musicians for wearing floppy hats, or any other thing such as making fun of someone if they like a bit, or a lot of harmonic distortion.  Whether that happens in the Drawing Board, Brewery or elsewhere.. let's get rid of that negativity.

On a personal level, I left and took a break from the forum in mid June 2020.  None of the GDIY "family" reached out to me.  I left in 2018, for over a year.  None of the "family" reached out to me.  This is not how a family or friends operate... and if it is.. man, I had the wrong impression of what friendship is.

I roll the way I roll, and I give credit where it's due.  I've also stayed away from the Brewery as much as possible.

I've been public and outspoken about trying to make this a better forum but I don't think it has made me very popular.

-A

Re: Our DIY family, politics, and scott2000
« Reply #11 on: August 01, 2020, 01:10:05 PM »
If I may sidestep (but appreciate) your grievance WB, for a moment,  I strongly get the sense if we didn't have a conservative-leaning mod of any stripe, this forum's brewery would have collapsed into a leftist camp so fully as to make conversation uninteresting.
 


It's OK dude, I wasn't needing a response.  Just wanted to say my bit which I have.

My current feelings didn't transpire due to activity in the Brewery anyway,  I'd already dropped my participation in other rooms after being trolled in a couple of audio related threads. 

They can have the floor, I  yield my time...


 
 
Jeffrey Toobin: "This is the most embarrassing week ever."

Rudy Giuliani: "Hold my pants..."

crazydoc

Re: Our DIY family, politics, and scott2000
« Reply #12 on: August 01, 2020, 01:17:46 PM »
I just want to thank JR for having this essentially unmoderated forum where I can honestly spew out my likes and dislikes and get things off my chest without any real-world repercussions, and get intelligent, thoughtful feedback. I was banned from another forum for much less inflammatory comments that were considered "political", but I think were mainly an excuse for the mods to exercise their power.

Anyway, I don't do much DIY electronics anymore except guitar wiring, but I enjoy reading all the sh!t here and can't hold any ill will toward cyber-individuals. Keep it up, and thanks again JR.
Luckily, there is more than one way to skin a cat.
The secret of happiness is having low expectations.

boji

Re: Our DIY family, politics, and scott2000
« Reply #13 on: August 01, 2020, 01:21:54 PM »
Quote
I'll point out again that it was Bluebird just weeks ago who tried to silence Desol. 

We have to risk being wrong to get to places where we aren't wrong. This doesn't happen easily, or very naturally. The natural tendency is to keep to the early side of the Dunning Kruger curve, and think we have nothing to risk, because we know all there is to know about a given thing or position.  The Hegelian dialectic fundamentally lends causality to our attempts to become better thinkers, and in turn, better people. Censure can come from any direction; incidental evidence is no reason to demand it occur generally, as were it made retroactive, you'd be silenced too.

Matador

Re: Our DIY family, politics, and scott2000
« Reply #14 on: August 01, 2020, 01:23:15 PM »
If anything I agree with both 80hinhiding AND Bluebird (and to a large extent, Winston as well).

I worked with a lot of "conservative" people, in fact, one of my closest co-workers was way right (think "Hillary Clinton eats babies" right), and after a few initial months of jabbing back and forth, I entirely refused to talk politics with him in any capacity.  However after that we had a great working relationship, working closely on many technical projects without issue, and I still consider them a friend to this day (even after blocking him on social media).  When it comes to politics and friendships, some things are better left undiscussed.

The issue (as I see it) is that inevitably we end up debating people's own personal "truths", which is a minefield with only casualties, and no forward progress.  I would never think to debate the existence of God in a church, so why talk politics on the internet?

IMHO, policy should always start with a foundation of "evidence based practice", because that neatly sidesteps "truth" and reframes the issue into one of "What can I do to prove that my hypothesis addresses the problem, even without a rigorous understanding of the underlying dynamics?"  Policy (and politics) should follow in the way of medicine, starting with questions like: what reduces harm?  Does random sampling indicate causality like I think?  How do other modalities treat the symptoms?  Despite not knowing in a large sense how human bodies work, we've made remarkable advances in treating ailments based on these principles.  Nobody in medicine says "Those pills lead to socialism." or "Treatments should afford the opportunity for a cure, not the outcome of a cure."  I would love to debate policy on this level, but there are very few willing (or able) participants, mostly because many policies fail those tests above.

In any case, I've largely concluded that time outside the Brewery is time better spent.

JohnRoberts

Re: Our DIY family, politics, and scott2000
« Reply #15 on: August 01, 2020, 01:37:55 PM »
While I appreciate the sentiment of the OP., I don't thinkI can agree with everything.
But I'm not sure I really care any more.

To be honest,  the illusion of family on here left me a few weeks ago.
Not in the Brewery, but in the Drawing Room,  during a thread on mixers.

I was treated, in my opinion,  very unfairly by John Roberts.
The thing I like about electronics is that things can be resolved objectively with data and facts. (I won't repost the cartoon about fairness).

I recall that thread and you kept pressing an opinion that in my judgement (based on decades of experience in console design) was not germane to the OPs question. You kept citing a design example that may have been true in isolation but in the context of the OPs situation was swamped by other noise sources, and impractical.
Quote

 I was told so by another moderator who had wanted to say something but felt unable to.
I communicate with the other mods regularly in our administrative area. I am not aware that any are unable to talk to me.

There is no rank or special authority between the sundry mods.  Ethan is in charge, and we just carry out the trash (last night it was russian spam).

We routinely contradict each other publicly wrt technical issues.
Quote
That's when I decided I'm done participating in anything worthwhile.

I also find it a bit strange that the person whose political opinions I find most odious (not that anyone isn't entitled to an opinion) is also  a moderator who has the power to be warning people about things said in the Brewery.
I'm just enforcing forum rules. I made the warning publicly so the entire forum can see that the bad behavior is unacceptable. If bad behavior goes unchecked it will multiply and expand.

Disagreeing with me does not give anyone license to publicly make personal attacks (ad hominem). If anything I bend over backwards to turn the other cheek and only warn people publicly when they finally exhaust my patience.

I have the power to edit/delete comments I don't like ( but I do not do so unless they are egregious violations of forum rules). We haven't kicked anybody off the forum for years, and (s)he was an incorrigible repeat offender.   
Quote
Also, if I see someone who expresses an opinion that it's funny when folks are shot in the eye with a rubber bullet, I'm going to say  what I think of that opinion.  And I'm even less inclined to be nicer to that person.
that doesn't sound very funny to me....

Rubber bullets were first used 50 years ago in Northern Ireland. I recall an incident in Boston after a Red sox victory in 2004  where a pepper spray filled projectile hit a college student in the eye (through into the brain) and killed her.  Within the last year I recall at least one protestor in Hong Kong losing an eye from a rubber bullet. Bean bag rounds fired from shot guns can also cause  brain damage (or death) from direct head shots. Non-lethal munitions are generally not life threatening but unfortunately it can happen. There is a lot of research into non-lethal crowd control. I suspect the popularity of rubber bullets and bean bag rounds is due to low entry cost, and promise of lower lethality. (Those of us old enough recall college student protesters at Kent state killed by National Guard troops firing real bullets.)   
Quote
Whatever, I'm probably done here in any meaningfully  anyway,

YFMMV.
I invite you all to complain to Ethan if you think I am abusing my role as moderator. One forum member actually reported me...( to me  ::) ) claiming I was trolling.  I remember what this place was like before we tightened up enforcement of the rule against personal attack. Political topics here routinely degenerated into the name calling, mud slinging, sh__ storms like we see on most other social media venues.

JR
It's nice to be nice....

Re: Our DIY family, politics, and scott2000
« Reply #16 on: August 01, 2020, 04:29:07 PM »

I recall that thread and you kept pressing an opinion that in my judgement (based on decades of experience in console design) was not germane to the OPs question. 
 

The OP was asking about *exactly*and *specifically*  what my replies addressed.     Nothing more.
I remember you were  intent on plugging your paper from 1980, nothing more.

 
That you remember the thread,   but don't feel the need to address how your behaviour in that thread might have affected another member here (me),  speaks volumes. 
 
So,  as I already said, you've  got the floor now, I yield  my time.


Ciao.  I guess I'm done. 
Jeffrey Toobin: "This is the most embarrassing week ever."

Rudy Giuliani: "Hold my pants..."

squarewave

Re: Our DIY family, politics, and scott2000
« Reply #17 on: August 01, 2020, 04:35:31 PM »
I feel strongly that people should be able to talk about whatever they want so I've never said anything but if we're all going to be open and honest, I think the political discussion here has become a big negative. For me E is a thing to do when you want to get away from the noise. So to come here and see people raging about politics is a real drag. I can't help but wonder if people are tuning out because of it.

boji

Re: Our DIY family, politics, and scott2000
« Reply #18 on: August 01, 2020, 05:02:56 PM »
Quote
Policy (and politics) should follow in the way of medicine

Interesting analogy worth thinking about.  I completely support the sense that policies should rely on evidence of utility, or evidence of harm and be modified with the intent to achieve an ideal state between language and its effects.

Yet it sounds like you're saying political dialogue is inherently palliative.  ;D  I believe it is all not so, and that you disprove yourself by having anything of political worth to say. What about persuasion, facts, or better modes of sensemaking that are introduced when folks get tired of speaking past one another? We've all come by a political position through some linguistic means.  From out of every 'lost' argument should be reflection, and however subconscious, a shift in language towards better sensemaking. At least this is how I try to engage with the world, and assume a curative path.

Failures to optimally converse where the intent is to explain rather than understand is becoming the default position most everywhere, but I'm still learning about political sides, among so many other things! I like the topic because I am not in an ideal state between language and its effects. Disagreements are the costs I pay, (or sometimes debit another) when seeking to learn something during the phase transition from old thinking to new. Veracity must be tested along the way so we don't slip into fantasy.

However I'm fully guilty of acting more like a messenger than a listener.  In this respect we would all probably be better off if we engaged more like Scott2k in discourse, whatever the topic.

Quote
None of the GDIY "family" reached out to me.
Had I been given cause to via a PM, I would have, despite our lack of personal connection even if it came from someone else. I'm sure many others around here would've done the same.  As it is, most of us live out our days in little opaque bubbles of intent, and to put on a clean pair of pants for the day, is a day successfully met.  But I hope things are looking up for you, truly!
« Last Edit: August 01, 2020, 06:08:30 PM by boji »

TwentyTrees

Re: Our DIY family, politics, and scott2000
« Reply #19 on: August 01, 2020, 05:39:28 PM »
Ciao.  I guess I'm done.

I'm very sorry to read this. I've been meaning to drop a line to say how much I've enjoyed your posts since you rejoined GDIY, and how much I've appreciated your generosity in sharing your expertise as well as the warmth with which you've done so. It'll be a great loss to the community if you do decide to step away, and I suspect that more people than you may think will be sorry to see you go (though of course you've got to do what's right for you).

"I think we have to start looking at each other as a family more than we have been... It would be nice if everyone felt safe here"

Damn straight! Tone can be so hard to judge without verbal and nonverbal cues to navigate by - even more so when we throw in language and cultural differences as well. It's on all of us to consider how we say things as well as what we say.

That said, in my view this community in the most part does well. It's generally far more civilised than the majority of what I've found online*; and the respect for those who really know their onions (as both JR and WO'B unquestionably do) runs deep. As someone who on a good day can barely tell his onions from his optocouplers I greatly appreciate this, and though I don't post a lot I learn a huge amount from the discussions, debates and differences of perspective. With that in mind I'd invite any and all to tap me on the shoulder and let me know if in my posts I ever come across as anything less than collegiate and respectful.

Thanks Bluebird for bringing this up. GDIY at its best is worth celebrating.



*I do stay out of the overtly political threads though, so I realise my experience may not be your experience.


 

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