One way to talk politics

Take the person you disagree with most and try to steelman their position, meaning, instead of telling them all the ways they are wrong, or their tribe has it wrong, do the best job possible to make their argument for them to see if it aligns with what they really think. It's a potent method for coming to understandings, and helps to articulate one's own point of view over time as well.  Willing to bet the stronger the feeling one has against someone, the greater the misunderstanding.  When I muster up the energy, I'll give it a go.

Hearing your opponent make your own argument that satisfies your general point of view be like:

boji said:

Take the person you disagree with most and try to steelman their position, meaning, instead of telling them all the ways they are wrong, or their tribe has it wrong, do the best job possible to make their argument for them to see if it aligns with what they really think. It's a potent method for coming to understandings, and helps to articulate one's own point of view over time as well.  Willing to bet the stronger the feeling one has against someone, the greater the misunderstanding.  When I muster up the energy, I'll give it a go.

Hearing your opponent make your own argument that satisfies your general point of view be like:

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I have too many friends (cough?) on FB... I saw that meme twice already today...(but about the red neck lawn mower, not mutual understanding).

Here is an amusing anecdote (perhaps?) from my life.

Today at the post office, actually my second visit since the postmaster didn't manage to get my morning paper (already 10 hours old) in my PO box by 10am, my first attempt. This is more work since I have to mask up and put on gloves two times,  but during attempt two... there were some other fellow Hickory residents inside the modest size mail box pick up area.  I said "excuse me" as I maneuvered past a mother with her very young son, there was another senior citizen sitting on the window sill reading her mail. The room was barely 6' wide so impossible to maintain social distancing minimums. The young child who apparently hasn't developed any filters yet, said in a clear voice "oh my god" as I walked past him.  ;D If anything I thought it was a little amusing but his mother, probably embarrassed, smacked him so hard it hurt everybody in the room. He let out such a shriek I had to cover my ears with my hands, as the mother dragged him outside into the parking lot. You know when a scream is so loud it loosens your ear wax.  A young kid in full voice can make more SPL than I can easily tolerate ( the human ear is tuned to resonate with young puke's vocal cords.).

I  feel for everybody involved in this drama.  Again I do not feel personally guilty. I wonder what lesson the kid will take from all this, but kids are notorious for repeating inconvenient comments they overheard from adults. The kid is probably above average intelligence. Not sure about his momma.

JR

boji said:

Take the person you disagree with most and try to steelman their position, meaning, instead of telling them all the ways they are wrong, or their tribe has it wrong, do the best job possible to make their argument for them to see if it aligns with what they really think.

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On this, John and I are in agreement.

JohnRoberts said:

Nobody is changing anybody's minds here. 

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The computer in Wargames was right:  the only winning move is not to play.

Matador said:

The computer in Wargames was right:  the only winning move is not to play.

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Thanks for the reminder

Boji thanks for sharing this interesting approach/concept. I´ll try to try that

(I am not so interested in Gameof Thrones TV series, but when the first books appeared in the early 2000´s I was a big fan. The way one chapter would build a character up to be super evil, the next chapter taking on his perspective. That gives a little shift in attitude towards ethic judgement that is very telling about the human nature ;D )

JR
While that anecdote was not particularly amusing, it was a fascinating human character study, so much implicit in so little interaction! I think a good writer could make a good short story from it...
Thanks for sharing too-
Btw. I am around children from difficult backgrounds a lot. So often there´s no way to help. One thing I try to achieve is let them know I witness their hurt (when old enough). That may be some help.

In chess it it instructive to flip the board around and play from the opposite position,  so I agree with the general sentiment.

But I still don't get why politics becomes such an identity team mentality.  People pick a side and then refuse to call BS on their side and only see the others flaws.

Rs are for small government and fiscal responsibility. Their actions are comically hilarious in the opposite  direction.

Ds are for anti war and people over corporations.  Their actions are comically hilarious in the opposite direction.

So neither party has any actual principles other than their wallets.  So why spend so much time and energy attacking each other and defending parties and politicians that really don't care about you?

How bizarre - I was responding to Boji (this morning) and his post just disappeared?  Is the forum software on the fritz?

john12ax7 said:

In chess it it instructive to flip the board around and play from the opposite position,  so I agree with the general sentiment.

But I still don't get why politics becomes such an identity team mentality.  People pick a side and then refuse to call BS on their side and only see the others flaws.

Rs are for small government and fiscal responsibility. Their actions are comically hilarious in the opposite  direction.

Ds are for anti war and people over corporations.  Their actions are comically hilarious in the opposite direction.

So neither party has any actual principles other than their wallets.  So why spend so much time and energy attacking each other and defending parties and politicians that really don't care about you?

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Well stated. One of the founding Fathers warned against political parties. I’ve often thought we should abolish parties and just discuss issues. No person is polarized on every issue and can fit neatly in a D or R box. It’s insanity and it keeps us arguing about teams instead of coming together as people and fixing problems holistically.

Sorry Matador, I didn't like my writing. Overuse of metaphor. Thanks for reading, and considering a response.

Something I didn't mention was the zero sum game aspect of wargame simulation which ought not be the end desire in conversation.  Sides that resolve to keep their opinions close to their chest or believe they know all they need to about an 'enemy' are also more likely to deploy kinetic solutions.

Reposting the vid snippet on dangers of positive feedback loops:
https://youtu.be/djSuS1psglQ?t=90
(Forgive the title, if you will. Riots don't exclude the value or importance of protesting.)

boji said:

Sorry Matador, I didn't like my writing. Overuse of metaphor. Thanks for reading, and considering a response.

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No problem...I threw away my response because I didn't want to quote something that maybe you'd since deleted.

To boil down what I wrote in a few sentences, I don't object outright to your suggestion, or think it lacks merit, I think it's just more that in practice, you have to go into a such discussions with eyes wide open, knowing full well that in 99.9999999% of cases, the "other side" isn't going to pay you back in kind.  A debate requires two sides to engage in good faith, otherwise it's just a "podcast".  But if it's 'palliative' to you, then by all means debate the brick wall.  ;D

Stated again: "Plant flowers in the gardens of those who will tend them."