I'm Out... (changed)

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living sounds said:
It gets rather consistent if you take people's personalities into account.
Liberals are compassionate, this really trumps every other aspect (see above cited study), so they want people to be well provided for (which means taxing the rich to provide government services) and minimize personal pain (which means allowing people to do whatever they want as long as it doesn't hurt others).

And conservatives... I won't pretend to actually understand conservatives.  ;D

Many conservatives have similar goals I think but approach it from the opposite perspective. IE: They want people to have good economic opportunity to provide for themselves, and to not have morality they disagree with forced on them by the government. Of course, the iknage of conservatives in media rarely reflects this, and the notion that liberals are automatically more "compassionate" is just absurd. I have met so many generous conservative people....but no they don't want the government spending what they freely offer to charity and church. It's hard to get a metric on morality.
 
bluebird said:
Perhaps the title of the post is a little offesive. I'll change it.
I was not offended by your thread title. I am trying to point out that leaning right unavoidably forces people to support BAD policies. Thanks for being sensitive and considerate. I wish you were my neighbor that flies this flag and you came to your senses. Isn't it sweet, thinking that your one place of solace wasn't perverted by these issues? I always ignored the brewery, prior C-19. I was so busy that it was all I could do to build gear and work. Not talking about politics at the dinner table(or other places)IMO is how our country ended up in this mess. Now the current president is LITERALLY talking about throwing away people's votes. Chilling the f#*k out now seems like letting things go awry. My neighbors have lost their mind and Kyle Rittenhouse lives only a few towns away from me. I know SEVERAL families that came from the same "cookie cutter" in my area. I cannot "chill out" while people in this forum support policies that support more of the same. Quoting another member's last statement, possibly another thread.... "We are doomed"... but only if we "chill the f*%k out" and allow the status quo to continue. Rise up, people. Shame the shameful. Now is our LAST chance.
 

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iampoor1 said:
I have met so many generous conservative people...
Me too. There is a military family in my neighborhood. The father(Vietnam)would give me the shirt off his back... but he had to make sure we weren't Latin or black when we were moving in. The kids(Iraq/Afghanistan)got caught up in some stolen guns. They were going to "sell them to the n****rs" on the south side of Chicago. These are our "country's proudest". It's not hard to get a metric on morality if you actually adhere to the definition.
 
abbey road d enfer said:
What would he have done if...?

Well, I wasn't, but when I grew up in a small, primarily white town, the only black family in our school had to keep moving from neighborhood to neighborhood because their house was regularly vandalized... must have been the radical leftists.
 
iturnknobs said:
I was not offended by your thread title. I am trying to point out that leaning right unavoidably forces people to support BAD policies. Thanks for being sensitive and considerate. I wish you were my neighbor that flies this flag and you came to your senses. Isn't it sweet, thinking that your one place of solace wasn't perverted by these issues? I always ignored the brewery, prior C-19. I was so busy that it was all I could do to build gear and work. Not talking about politics at the dinner table(or other places)IMO is how our country ended up in this mess. Now the current president is LITERALLY talking about throwing away people's votes. Chilling the f#*k out now seems like letting things go awry. My neighbors have lost their mind and Kyle Rittenhouse lives only a few towns away from me. I know SEVERAL families that came from the same "cookie cutter" in my area. I cannot "chill out" while people in this forum support policies that support more of the same. Quoting another member's last statement, possibly another thread.... "We are doomed"... but only if we "chill the f*%k out" and allow the status quo to continue. Rise up, people. Shame the shameful. Now is our LAST chance.
Fair enough! I'm saying we can have constructive, informing conversation with the good people here without the abrasiveness. And I think its my duty being politically moderate to try and bring opposing sides together. Even though I'm well aware that those sides think if "I'm not part of the solution I'm part of the problem." I accept this but try anyways. National and global politics start with individual, local, and community relationships, so that is what most concerns me. Its where the most practical work for change can be done.
 
iturnknobs said:
I am trying to point out that leaning right unavoidably forces people to support BAD policies.

Why? Neither side is 100% correct or 100% incorrect.

This all or nothing type thinking exacerbates the problem. Yes there are terrible people on the right who have done terrible things.  But there are also terrible people on the left who have done terrible things. History is filled with both.

Ideas and policies should be debated on their own merit. And good ideas come from all sides.
 
iturnknobs said:
I was not offended by your thread title. I am trying to point out that leaning right unavoidably forces people to support BAD policies. Thanks for being sensitive and considerate. I wish you were my neighbor that flies this flag and you came to your senses. Isn't it sweet, thinking that your one place of solace wasn't perverted by these issues? I always ignored the brewery, prior C-19. I was so busy that it was all I could do to build gear and work. Not talking about politics at the dinner table(or other places)IMO is how our country ended up in this mess. Now the current president is LITERALLY talking about throwing away people's votes. Chilling the f#*k out now seems like letting things go awry. My neighbors have lost their mind and Kyle Rittenhouse lives only a few towns away from me. I know SEVERAL families that came from the same "cookie cutter" in my area. I cannot "chill out" while people in this forum support policies that support more of the same. Quoting another member's last statement, possibly another thread.... "We are doomed"... but only if we "chill the f*%k out" and allow the status quo to continue. Rise up, people. Shame the shameful. Now is our LAST chance.
...it's like I'm a crystal ball. Silence is cooperation.
 
You know the old Irish motto , careful what you wish for it might end up becoming true  :-\
 
Well, this place has just become too angry and hateful for me to hang. I just wanted to "chill" with my DIY audio internet buddies, but man, this is just ugly. Most cool people have left anyways. Wonder why? Much love, and good luck!
 
john12ax7 said:
Why? Neither side is 100% correct or 100% incorrect.

The problem with this sort of phrasing is that right now, one side is not even playing the same game.  Let's get everybody back on the playing field, recognizing the same rules, acknowledging the value of facts, evidence and reason.  If that would happen, we could start having this discussion. 
 
bluebird said:
Well, this place has just become too angry and hateful for me to hang. I just wanted to "chill" with my DIY audio internet buddies, but man, this is just ugly. Most cool people have left anyways. Wonder why? Much love, and good luck!

No offense, but how can you not be furious right now?  I get not wanting to face it every minute of the day, but seriously, what about this week's events did not make you livid?

EDIT:  I would love to be celebrating this this week, but somehow it got overshadowed:

And yet, a few hundred miles to the south and just a few hours earlier, an entirely different vision of American prevailed. There, Georgians – not just Democrats, but Republicans and independents as well – set a record for turnout in a runoff election. Despite enormous pressure from the president and death threats from his supporters, election officials of both parties held a fair and free contest, corrected misinformation in real time, and even managed to count the vast majority of the votes before the night was through.

Georgia and Georgians did a great job with the runoff--best voter participation in a runoff ever in this state--but at least for the moment that seems to look minor in comparison to the storming of the Capitol, and the words and events that brought us to this point. 
 
What a bunch of cry-babies. Ga-bye. The only thing dumber than leaving an electronics forum because you got into a political argument is that an electronics forum allows political discussion in the first place.
 
squarewave said:
The only thing dumber than leaving an electronics forum because you got into a political argument is that an electronics forum allows political discussion in the first place.

IDK?

https://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/95041485_davids-personal-kitt-knight-rider-car
 
I don't get it either. In my mind, given the circumstances, we are having civil discussions here.

This was shared to one of my favourite political blogs. It puts things into a perspective I share:

D.E. in Lancaster, PA, writes: I feel compelled to write this weekend, although I don't trust myself to adequately convey what I think. The insurrection on Wednesday is too close in time for me to feel assured that I'm not letting my emotions vent and that coherency won't fly out the window.

For over 20 years, I was proud to call Washington, D.C., my home. Call me overly naive or shamelessly sentimental but there is something about living that close to history and the siren song of worthwhile ideals that will bring a catch to my voice and rend my heart in two. While living there I came to conclusion that there is a sublime symbology to the well known federal buildings and monuments. If you stand on the lawn on the west side of the Capitol, the side where protests, inaugurations and rallies take place, there is a trick to the perspective that makes it seem as if the Capitol is leaning backwards, its face straining upwards to our better angels. Again I may be hopelessly naive, but I do believe that despite the political games, that most people in that building are dedicated to those lofty ideals which founded our nation. I know this because in my 20 years living in D.C., I have known many Congressional staffers and aides. These people come from all across America, from small rural towns I had never heard of, from famous metropolises, and from from every place in-between. These people are incredibly smart with degrees and honors that are sometimes mind boggling. They didn't come from all across the country to make money, because most could go to Wall Street and big business to make several times the salary they make on Capitol Hill. This might seem like it comes from a Jimmy Stewart movie, but the vast majority of them come because they sincerely and deeply believe in the ideals of democracy and freedom.

I lived in D.C. on that very horrible day of Sept. 11, 2001. I know there is some debate about the ultimate destination of the fourth hijacked plane, UA 93, whether it was the White House or the Capitol. Personally, I always thought it was the Capitol because it is an more obvious target to spot from the air and that it is more symbolic (after all the White House is just a home and not a palace, so as to remind us that our President is just one man—maybe one day a woman—and not some demigod). The reason why UA 93 terrorist hijackers' target is unknown is because the passengers and crew tried to wrestle control of the plane from the terrorists, causing the plane to crash into a field in Shanksville, PA. Among the passengers was one known gay man who helped rush the cockpit to try to take control of the plane. A gay man whom most of Trump's supporters would gladly deny rights to and who would think nothing of calling him an offensive name, because after all they don't know any "queers," so why should they be bothered? Among the crew of UA 93 were three Black Americans, who also fought and struggled with the terrorists—you know, the people that most Trump supporters don't think deserve dignity and respect and who somehow think it's funny to call them "thugs" and "ni**ers." People whom Trump supporters can't be bothered with showing respect to because they spent their entire lives trying not to get to know any, by hiding away in all-white suburbs and rural enclaves. But because of the heroic actions of those Black, gay and other Americans the U.S. Capitol, symbol of Democracy, still stood intact after that dark day. In the dark days after 9/11, I took comfort seeing the light kit in the Capitol's Tholos, knowing that our Democracy was still functioning. How disgusting it is to me that our Capitol was damaged by an angry mob of entitled white bigots, more bent on destroying our nation than a group of religious extremists could ever do. Who needs foreign terrorists when you have "citizens" like that?

And let's look at this mob. Not one of them has ever been fired because their boss didn't approve of who they loved. Not one has ever been awakened in the middle of the night with news that their son has been shot by the police because his being in a car at night, and probably a sign of a drug deal in progress. Not one of those rioters was hurting for money. They clearly have a lot of disposal income to blow on their militia drag and their Trump trinkets. Considering that some flew in to D.C. as far away as Arizona and California, taking several days off work, and stayed in D.C. hotels (not cheap), they clearly had more disposable income than I do. And yet they are so enraged and angry but about what? I've watched a lot of the footage and while I saw an overabundance of rage I also saw an equal amount of smugness and belief in their own superiority. What I didn't see was anyone trying to secure their basic rights, or someone protesting an unjust war or police brutality. Yet all these thugs overflowed with arrogance as they looted and vandalized the U.S. Capitol, the very acts that they sneeringly berate Black people of doing. "Even if the police are being racist towards Black people, that's no reason for them to destroy property and loot," the Trump supporters like to scream. To me, one of the most iconic images from the Insurrection was that smugly smiling jackass carting away Speaker Pelosi's podium. What's up dude, you couldn't find a flatscreen TV to steal? I am waiting for Fox News to start hawking "My Grandparents rioted at the Capitol and all I got was this lousy letter from Speaker Pelosi's desk" t-shirts.

So many letters on this site have complained about how the left does not listen or try to understand the right's point of view. Before Wednesday, I said that I think that with all the diner interviews we have tried, and while we don't see what you are angry about, we will try to keep listening. After Wednesday, I say we have heard enough! The howl of uncontrollable rage was loud and clear and it was the same howl a spoiled three-year-old has, kicking and screaming in a tantrum. We saw the flags of hatred, racism and fascism clearly on display. If you are a Trump supporter and don't think you believe in racism, fascism, vandalism, terrorism, propaganda, lies, dictatorship and insurrection, then I really think you are long overdue for some serious self-reflection of which leader you chose to follow. If you denounce Trump, then we on the left will continue to try to listen to you and invite you into the national conversation. If not, then you need to be ostracized—and I use that word purposefully with an understanding of its Greek origins.

I have been reading about how the insurrectionists are being identified through social media. Many have already been fired from their jobs. That means loss of income at a time when they need money for lawyers. Most will face jail time and/or heavy fines—and more serious charges will probably be coming as the investigators get a better picture of what happened. Gone for good is their disposable income, as most will find it very hard—if not impossible—to find jobs at the level they are accustomed to after they are released. For "He-Men" who pride themselves as provider and protector of their wife and children, they are forcing their families into poverty and destitution. Some will lose their homes. Many will be divorced and estranged from their children. I was somewhat surprised to read that many of these "good people" were already alienated from family and friends because of their radicalization. Their ostracizing is only going to become more pronounced. And for what? Because they were so stupidly guilible as to believe the lies of one man-child trying to hold on to power to stroke his own petty ego. He doesn't love you or even think of you as individuals. If he thinks of you at all, it as merely as instruments to inflate his own ego. He will not think twice about how you have really ruined your lives. Trump stood on that stage on Wednesday in front of his rabid fans and encouraged them to attack the Capitol, saying that he would be with them all the way, but then he scurried back to his bunker. Just like Osama bin Laden hid in a compound while his followers ram jets into the World Trade Center and the Pentagon, Trump played the coward. Just like Charles Manson hid in the car while he sent his followers to commit the brutal Tate-LaBianca murders, so Trump could appear to have "no blood on his hands." If I can give some advice, you should always know you're following a false messiah when he gets you to do his dirty work while he cowers in comfort.

In conclusion, let me just say a few random things that I feel need to be said: I fully and wholeheartedly support Speaker Nancy Pelosi's (D-CA) push to impeach and remove Trump from office and hopefully bar him from ever running for office again. I also fully support Rep. Joaquin Castro's (D-TX) bill to prevent any federal buildings from being named after Trump. While I can't believe I'm saying this, I fully support Twitter and Facebook banning Trump from their platforms and hope they extend those bans to his spawn, lawyers and most rabid supporters. I feel that Trump without Twitter is a serpent defanged. I would also like to urge Speaker Pelosi and soon to be Majority Leader Chuck Schumer (D-NY) to expel Senators Josh Hawley (R-MO) and Ted Cruz (R-TX) and Representatives Matt Gaetz (R-FL), Marjorie Taylor Greene (R-GA), and Louie Gohmert (R-TX) from their respected bodies—or, at the very least, they need to be censured. Thanks to (V) and (Z) for pointing out that censuring means members can not assume leadership position or chair committees, which is like telling an actor they can act but never have a starring role.

I also want to be sure to applaud Senators Mitt Romney (R-UT), Lisa Murkowski (R-AK), and Pat Toomey (R-PA). While we might disagree politically on some issues, I do think that they acted as honorable citizens and I am proud to call them fellow Americans. I need to apologize to Senator Toomey, because the last time I corresponded with him I inquired about his lack of spine—clearly he has one. I will even give the shifty Sen. Mitch McConnell (R-KY) and that odious little worm Sen. Lindsey Graham (R-SC) the benefit of the doubt—while it is very likely their remarks were made to try to save their political skins, there may have been some patriotism in there as well, and it only takes one drop to make any bucket overflow. I will even give other Republicans a week or so to sense which way the wind is blowing and to redeeming themselves for still voting to support Trump's lies after the insurrection—you still have a chance but the door is swinging shut quickly.

The only good thing to come of this whole sorry incident is that Sen. Josh Hawley's (R-MO) political dreams are in ruins. His name will lie on the trash heap of American history along with Benedict Arnold, Trump, Aldrich Ames, Robert Hansen, John Wilkes Booth, and Lee Harvey Oswald, where it belongs. As Romney responded to Hawley, "The best way we could show respect for the voters who were upset is by telling them the truth. That's the burden. That's the duty of leadership." With that in mind, I hope after the immediate concerns of getting Trump out of office, expelling or censuring Hawley, Cruz, Gaetz, Greene and Gohmert, and arresting all the insurrectionists are all take care of, a serious look is given to how Fox News and other conservative media peddle disinformation and conspiracy theories to their viewers. They need to be held accountable for giving these insurrectionists a place to thrive. As we have laws that make sure we know what is in our food (in other words, that a company can't take rat meat and label it as beef), we need cable and Internet news to clearly differentiate between reporting and opinion. Way too much opinion is masquerading as news, and while everyone is entitled to an opinion, they are not entitled to have their nonsense be given the sheen of authenticity. These things might seen harsh to some, but harshness is what is needed right now to convince those that can be redeemed that Trumpism should go the way of fascism in Germany after World War II. These might seem to all be one-sided against the Republicans, but there wasn't a single Democrat, liberal, socialist, Antifa, or progressive breaking windows, stealing lecterns or tracking their barnyard bathroom habits across the rotunda. Some in the Republican party, and all in the alt-right movement need to grow up, clean their rooms and get their sh*t together. And that's not harsher than they deserve. Stop acting like the two year olds and join the adults at the table, where you will always be welcome, but your howls of rage and self-pity now fall on deaf ears.

https://www.electoral-vote.com/evp2021/Pres/Maps/Jan10.html


 
living sounds said:
I don't get it either. In my mind, given the circumstances, we are having civil discussions here.
I agree, this is about as civil as it can possibly be here, considering completely opposing views are having arguments. There is no name calling, the notion that the discussion partner could be an ignorant fool is mostly only implied ;D. So I don't really see in what way you could actually want the forum to be different. This is a lot nicer and more productive than many discussions I encounter in real life. Personally I quite like it the way it is, getting to know the views from a wide range of people.

I also don't understand how any of this can have an actual impact on your mood. It's just random people hacking their thoughts into their keyboards, influenced by whether the sun is shining, what they had for breakfast, or whether that ebay shipment finally turned up, who by chance ended up on the same server, trying to make sense of what they experience. There is no point in being too attached to what somebody else halfway around the globe thinks about certain topics. And no single person is going to "fix" how people from all sorts of political, social and national backgrounds interact, and you certainly can't rely on them to satisfy your need for harmony in all things. There are rules on this forum and they are being upheld, if you feel there is a need for change I would suggest start there.
 
Conservatives, at least "Value Conservatives", tradionally are all about impulse control, self-moderation, discipline, delayed gratification, incrimental changes vs revolutions etc.

What we are dealing with, Trumpism, the insurrection, the anti-institutionalism and anti-intellectualism, is not Conservatism. It is Fascism.

I think this needs to be repeated, over and over. Some people can, do and will realize that they have been led away from their path.

And yes, this is very much a one-sided problem.

I also do not understand how one can take our forum discussion serious to the point of having to leave. I don't even get that in real life. I still am friends with my conspiracy minded friends (though none of them are Neo-Nazis, which I hope none of our members here are).
 
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