DaxLiniere

Crazy idea? Phantom supplied patchbay
« on: October 03, 2020, 05:48:48 PM »
Hey guys!
I run Puzzle Factory Sound Studios, once in Australia, now in London. I have B-gauge patchbays in my control rooms that I use to connect the wallboxes in my live rooms to my preamps/console.

I have been thinking it would be useful to build a 1RU strip with a whole lotta switches which can deliver phantom power to each of the individual B-gauge sockets, rather than using the phantom supplies in the preamps themselves.

But why? I hate patchbays in general, even more so when it comes to sending phantom through them. Even when properly cleaned and using brand new quality patch cables, a little bump can sometimes cause a loud crackle.
If phantom was wired directly to the back of the patchbay (at the cables that run to the XLR wall boxes), it would eliminate this PITA.

A question I have; would this affect crosstalk and, if so, is there a way to eliminate that?

I believe the phantom power spec is 100mA max per device, so with that in mind, a 5A linear regulator will do the job easily. To be honest, 3A is probably enough, knowing that many mics won't need phantom and very few will draw the entire 100mA.
There are a few low-noise regulators that will do 48v output such as https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Assembled-LT1083-Adjustable-HIFI-Linear-Regulated-Power-Supply-Board-Dual-0-48V/253477392391?hash=item3b046e1007:g:iowAAOSwa2lZfOFZ

I'm happy to buy expensive 6k8 resistors and carefully match them for each output.

Any thoughts on how best to approach this project?


All the best,
Dax.
Dax Liniere

PUZZLE FACTORY
SOUND STUDIOS


MagnetoSound

Re: Crazy idea? Phantom supplied patchbay
« Reply #1 on: October 03, 2020, 09:13:10 PM »
Spec is for 10mA per channel, not 100mA.

Might save you a few quid 😉
Dan

I don't think people realize what an embarrassment of riches this place is   -  Paul Gold

abbey road d enfer

Re: Crazy idea? Phantom supplied patchbay
« Reply #2 on: October 04, 2020, 03:38:22 AM »
A question I have; would this affect crosstalk and, if so, is there a way to eliminate that?
No issues with x-talk, however that implies the patchbay "grounds" need to be connected together. Are the grounds floated or tied together at the patchbay?
Anyway, they have to be connected somehow (usually via the preamps' safety ground).
It's just a warning that you will have to make a choice regarding where you connect the 0Volt of the 48V supply.

Quote
Any thoughts on how best to approach this project?
Just check that you have no issues with tiing the grounds together at the patchbay first. Then experiment with two channels that are powered from the most distant plugs.
Who's right or wrong is irrelevant. What matters is what's right or wrong.
Star ground is for electricians.

Rob Flinn

Re: Crazy idea? Phantom supplied patchbay
« Reply #3 on: October 05, 2020, 03:25:27 AM »
I used to run a tie line directly into each mic amp to avoid running mics through the patchbay.  I selected the  mic amp by plugging into the right socket in the live room, thus eliminating that flakey connection.  I had a piece of 48 pair cable to do the job.
regards Rob

abbey road d enfer

Re: Crazy idea? Phantom supplied patchbay
« Reply #4 on: October 05, 2020, 09:09:46 AM »
I used to run a tie line directly into each mic amp to avoid running mics through the patchbay.
I agree. Although I reckon it is possible to use a jackfield, it's too risky. In the heat of the moment too many things can happen.
In my studio I have an XLR patchbay. It's not pretty, it's bulky, it's not as easy as jacks, but it gives you time to pause.
Who's right or wrong is irrelevant. What matters is what's right or wrong.
Star ground is for electricians.

JohnRoberts

Re: Crazy idea? Phantom supplied patchbay
« Reply #5 on: October 05, 2020, 01:05:54 PM »
Inadvertent shorts while patching mics in a patch bay can dump amps of current into preamp electronics from charged up phantom caps.

Low level mic signals don't need to go through extra switch contacts.

As Abbey already shared, any external phantom supply needs its ground bonded to pin 1.

JR
Don't only half-ass tune your drums. Visit https://circularscience.com to hear what properly "cleared" drums sound like.

Rocinante

Re: Crazy idea? Phantom supplied patchbay
« Reply #6 on: October 05, 2020, 10:51:09 PM »
Yeah this reeks of a bad idea. If you have a new intern or tech or like me are babbling while doing stuff things could get ugly. Why do you need this?
If there's a harder way to do this, I haven't found it yet.

EmRR

Best,

Doug Williams
Electromagnetic Radiation Recorders

"I think this can be better. Some kind of control that's intuitive, not complicated like a single knob" - Crusty

"Back when everything sounde

mjrippe

Re: Crazy idea? Phantom supplied patchbay
« Reply #8 on: October 10, 2020, 01:59:14 PM »
Too many possible problems.  Like what happens if phantom is tuned on at the preamp as well?  Or you plug phantom in to the sidechain input of a compressor, or output of a digitial fx, or...

DaxLiniere

Re: Crazy idea? Phantom supplied patchbay
« Reply #9 on: October 20, 2020, 08:13:06 PM »
Hey everyone!
Thank you for your replies. The forum didn't send me any after Magneto's reply.
I'll take a read through and get back to you.

Thanks again!
Dax.
Dax Liniere

PUZZLE FACTORY
SOUND STUDIOS


gyraf

Re: Crazy idea? Phantom supplied patchbay
« Reply #10 on: October 21, 2020, 03:33:53 AM »
In our calrec UA-8000, everything was floated balanced, ground free. Which meant that supplying P48 was a specialized task for specialized "mic lines". All these met at the top of the patch bay, where the phantom switches were also located. So I kinda get your idea, I think.

On the other hand, our SSL4044 only had one phantom power switch, located at the PSU in the basement. Was never switched off during the 15 years we had it there. This why I know the ribbon-mic-and-phantom scare is exaggerated heavily. Regarding P48 potentially killing active-balanced line outputs, you simply do not connect a line output to a mic input: this is what line inputs are for.

/Jakob E.
..note to self: don't let Harman run your company..

DaxLiniere

Re: Crazy idea? Phantom supplied patchbay
« Reply #11 on: October 23, 2020, 10:28:48 AM »
Thanks again everyone for your reponses.

Spec is for 10mA per channel, not 100mA.
Might save you a few quid 😉

Oh, yes! Thanks, good catch.

No issues with x-talk, however that implies the patchbay "grounds" need to be connected together. Are the grounds floated or tied together at the patchbay?
Anyway, they have to be connected somehow (usually via the preamps' safety ground).
It's just a warning that you will have to make a choice regarding where you connect the 0Volt of the 48V supply.
They are all currently floating. The top rows are normalled to bottom row through switching contacts, but the grounds are all currently separate. I know I need to solder in a big ol' length of wire to bridge them all.
Connecting input grounds of all preamps/console seems like the right idea anyway, right?

I used to run a tie line directly into each mic amp to avoid running mics through the patchbay.  I selected the  mic amp by plugging into the right socket in the live room, thus eliminating that flakey connection.  I had a piece of 48 pair cable to do the job.

I used to, too, but it's not practical with a console. I truly hate patchbays and all the reliability problems they bring.

I agree. Although I reckon it is possible to use a jackfield, it's too risky. In the heat of the moment too many things can happen.
In my studio I have an XLR patchbay. It's not pretty, it's bulky, it's not as easy as jacks, but it gives you time to pause.

a) I have 40 lines and b) B-guage patchbays are already installed. See next point for risk.

Yeah this reeks of a bad idea. If you have a new intern or tech or like me are babbling while doing stuff things could get ugly. Why do you need this?

I'm planning to use locking switches, the type where you have to pull the 'stem' before it will move position.
Plus, this is a technical environment, but public playhouse. There are always details to pay attention to. :) I'm okay with this.

Too many possible problems.  Like what happens if phantom is tuned on at the preamp as well?  Or you plug phantom in to the sidechain input of a compressor, or output of a digitial fx, or...

Mic signals are on B-guage, line signals are on TRS so this is not easily possible. I don't think there is a problem if phantom is on at the preamp as well because a) there is 13k ohms between the two PSUs and b) they would be in parallel, not series.

In our calrec UA-8000, everything was floated balanced, ground free. Which meant that supplying P48 was a specialized task for specialized "mic lines". All these met at the top of the patch bay, where the phantom switches were also located. So I kinda get your idea, I think.

Hey Jakob, long time, no speak. Yes, you've got it in one. A bank of 24 switches on a 1U rack plate directly above each of the two B-gauge patchbays. Switches are vertically aligned so there's no confusion and locking switches to prevent accidental bumps. Carefully matched pairs of Vishay 1% 6k81 resistors and a yet-to-be-determined 1 amp super low noise PSU.
(If I had thought earlier that I would ever install a patchbay, I would have allowed for LEDs at the mic wallplates I had laser cut to indicate phantom present. Too hard to drill now as they're stainless steel.)

On the other hand, our SSL4044 only had one phantom power switch, located at the PSU in the basement. Was never switched off during the 15 years we had it there. This why I know the ribbon-mic-and-phantom scare is exaggerated heavily. Regarding P48 potentially killing active-balanced line outputs, you simply do not connect a line output to a mic input: this is what line inputs are for.

That's really interesting to hear. And were those mic lines on bantam or XLR patchbay?

All the best,
Dax.
Dax Liniere

PUZZLE FACTORY
SOUND STUDIOS

gyraf

Re: Crazy idea? Phantom supplied patchbay
« Reply #12 on: October 23, 2020, 10:58:24 AM »
SSL phantomized mic lines were TT bantam.
..note to self: don't let Harman run your company..

DaxLiniere

Re: Crazy idea? Phantom supplied patchbay
« Reply #13 on: October 23, 2020, 01:44:39 PM »
Okay, that's great to know. Thanks Jakob.
Do you think there is any merit in the idea that sending phantom from here would be to the detriment of the preamps? Will I definitely need to connect all the patchbay grounds or, since the signal from a mic is balanced anyway, could I avoid creating a path for the phantom to get to the preamps/console in the first place by omitting the shared ground?

Lastly, I'm thinking I might set up banks of 8, in case I ever wanted to use a mic line as a tie line (for reamping with XLR gender-benders, etc).

Another Q: I need to use 6k81 resistor pairs on every mic line, right? It's bad practice for all of them to share a single pair I guess.


Thanks again,
Dax.
Dax Liniere

PUZZLE FACTORY
SOUND STUDIOS

Rob Flinn

Re: Crazy idea? Phantom supplied patchbay
« Reply #14 on: Today at 01:06:04 PM »
Quote from: Rob Flinn on October 05, 2020, 08:25:27 AM

   
Quote
I used to run a tie line directly into each mic amp to avoid running mics through the patchbay.  I selected the  mic amp by plugging into the right socket in the live room, thus eliminating that flakey connection.  I had a piece of 48 pair cable to do the job.

I used to, too, but it's not practical with a console. I truly hate patchbays and all the reliability problems they bring.

I have never had a studio without a console, & it was very practical when I was doing it. 
regards Rob

abbey road d enfer

Re: Crazy idea? Phantom supplied patchbay
« Reply #15 on: Today at 02:51:51 PM »
Another Q: I need to use 6k81 resistor pairs on every mic line, right? It's bad practice for all of them to share a single pair I guess.
Think it over; if they shared the same resistors, they would all be in parallels!
Who's right or wrong is irrelevant. What matters is what's right or wrong.
Star ground is for electricians.

DaxLiniere

Re: Crazy idea? Phantom supplied patchbay
« Reply #16 on: Today at 04:15:37 PM »
Think it over; if they shared the same resistors, they would all be in parallels!

Oh geeeeez... never type while asleep folks. (which is the mortified embarrassment emoji?)
Dax Liniere

PUZZLE FACTORY
SOUND STUDIOS


 

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