pucho812

BB vs TI
« on: October 10, 2020, 09:16:53 PM »
was  about to purchase some 2134's and a google search found me looking at reverb and ebay, with 2134 chips by BB going for easily 3X the amount for a standard through hole version with a BB logo, vs a brand new through hole TI version.   has this world gone crazy?  with BB owned by TI is there really a difference? is it worth the mojo. I can't imagine it would be.

Save it for the audiophiles
You tell me whar a man gits his corn pone, en I'll tell you what his 'pinions is.


bluebird

Re: BB vs TI
« Reply #1 on: October 10, 2020, 10:49:48 PM »
I would always get op amps from mouser or digikey if your really looking to get one of the higher price units. The 2134 is a good FET input op amp, but if the circuit isn't driving a load less than 2K, I would just use a TL072.

pucho812

Re: BB vs TI
« Reply #2 on: October 10, 2020, 10:56:24 PM »
I would always get op amps from mouser or digikey if your really looking to get one of the higher price units. The 2134 is a good FET input op amp, but if the circuit isn't driving a load less than 2K, I would just use a TL072.
I hear you, and this is for repair stuff. I just found it funny that the 2134 from mouser is around 5 bucks in the same through hole package as the one from BB  which is around 15 bucks off evilbay.

There really is no difference and I  just found it amusing
You tell me whar a man gits his corn pone, en I'll tell you what his 'pinions is.

Re: BB vs TI
« Reply #3 on: October 10, 2020, 11:04:57 PM »
I would always get op amps from mouser or digikey if your really looking to get one of the higher price units. The 2134 is a good FET input op amp, but if the circuit isn't driving a load less than 2K, I would just use a TL072.

The TL072 is noisy AF, so it depends on the application you need besides only not being able to drive loads lower than 2K, also the TL072 has the dreaded inversion problem when the input common mode voltage range is exceded. IIRC the TL072 also has much higher common mode distortion if used in non inverting mode with a significant source impedance. That being said, a lot of great equipment has been made using the TL072.

With the new opamps nowadays I would only use a TL072 as a DC servo or as a meter buffer, thats about it...

iomegaman

Re: BB vs TI
« Reply #4 on: October 11, 2020, 02:24:27 AM »
I hear you, and this is for repair stuff. I just found it funny that the 2134 from mouser is around 5 bucks in the same through hole package as the one from BB  which is around 15 bucks off evilbay.

There really is no difference and I  just found it amusing

Evilbay has an entire subculture of "audiophile" crapped up prices...same as "vintage____anything" (especially transformers)...
Since the development of the internet millions of people have died, the two may or may not be related.

john12ax7

Re: BB vs TI
« Reply #5 on: October 11, 2020, 06:20:47 AM »
TI bought BB, and they were still labeled BB, are they TI now? The masks should still be the same,  but sometimes things get screwed up along the way,  so I suppose a difference is possible.

TL07x....no thank you.

JohnRoberts

Re: BB vs TI
« Reply #6 on: October 11, 2020, 09:32:36 AM »
The chips should be functionally equivalent.

There could be subtle differences if TI runs the same parts over a different production line, with slight differences in sheet resistivity of silicon substrates etc.

If there are "significant" differences these should be revealed by inspecting the TI device specification data sheet compared to Burr Brown data sheet. If they use the exact same data, they are saying they are the same.

JR 

PS: Over the years there have been issues with a few different chip foundries having isolated process issues (purple plague, etc). Modern IC process lines seem more stable, but I'm not in the trenches like I was decades ago. 
Don't only half-ass tune your drums. Visit https://circularscience.com to hear what properly "cleared" drums sound like.

elskardio

Re: BB vs TI
« Reply #7 on: October 11, 2020, 09:43:09 AM »
I’ve used both in my CA-250 EQs and They’re identical.

Same goes for LME49720 vs LM4562.

Some people see the BB logo printed on the IC and automatically think it sounds better  ::)

Also be careful with EBay... I’ve seen a lot of fake BB ICs. Some of them had the logo so badly printed that a bit of alcohol could remove the whole writing on them  ;D

JohnRoberts

Re: BB vs TI
« Reply #8 on: October 11, 2020, 11:30:40 AM »


TL07x....no thank you.
Over the decades I have used truckloads of TL07x with no regrets. I am old enough to remember when cheap op amps sucked. They were slow, and noisy, and ....

I started using TL07x and NE553x op amps as my go to devices for several decades since the mid/late 70s. As long as you apply them reasonably (modest closed loop gain, and awareness for limited drive capability of TL07x) they are both much better than the typical audio sources they are passing.

Now there are better devices to replace both but not as good bang for the buck.

JR

PS: I recently used a sweet modern CMOS op amp for an audio bump box running from 5V and it worked like a charm. We didn't have parts like that back in the day.
Don't only half-ass tune your drums. Visit https://circularscience.com to hear what properly "cleared" drums sound like.

Rochey

Re: BB vs TI
« Reply #9 on: October 11, 2020, 04:50:57 PM »
No difference.
All the same foundry. Packaging might be done at different subconscious in Taiwan and Malaysia. That can lead to some differences in marking styles.

Pre-acquisition parts were allowed to have the BB logo, but any updates - such as package tweaks etc end up TI branded.

TI is eager to teach the market that it’s BB by TI and to progressively get people understanding that most of the original BB have long since retired. Everyone is a TIer now.
Expat Audio Home: http://www.expataudio.com


Re: BB vs TI
« Reply #10 on: October 11, 2020, 11:55:51 PM »
Over the decades I have used truckloads of TL07x with no regrets. I am old enough to remember when cheap op amps sucked. They were slow, and noisy, and ....

I started using TL07x and NE553x op amps as my go to devices for several decades since the mid/late 70s. As long as you apply them reasonably (modest closed loop gain, and awareness for limited drive capability of TL07x) they are both much better than the typical audio sources they are passing.

Now there are better devices to replace both but not as good bang for the buck.

JR

PS: I recently used a sweet modern CMOS op amp for an audio bump box running from 5V and it worked like a charm. We didn't have parts like that back in the day.

Dear John, I was recently adviced here on this forum about a relatively new FET opamp, the 1642, which has a noise spec almost equal to the NE5532, high slew rate (20V/usec) and ultralow distortion (0.00005%@1KHz). Another one is the OPA1678 which has even better noise specs than the 5532 and it is a CMOS opamp. FET opamps are so good nowadays that it makes little sense using a TL072. The OPA1678 even has lower quiescent current than the TL072.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2020, 11:59:02 PM by Dualflip »

bluebird

Re: BB vs TI
« Reply #11 on: October 12, 2020, 02:38:27 AM »
The TL072 is noisy AF, so it depends on the application you need besides only not being able to drive loads lower than 2K, also the TL072 has the dreaded inversion problem when the input common mode voltage range is exceded. IIRC the TL072 also has much higher common mode distortion if used in non inverting mode with a significant source impedance. That being said, a lot of great equipment has been made using the TL072.

With the new opamps nowadays I would only use a TL072 as a DC servo or as a meter buffer, thats about it...

Your right! I didn't put enough thought into that advice, I just hate seeing my buddies spend so much money for op amps when the difference in most cases is inaudible. But noisy TL072's have that vintage sound, just like tubes! ;D

living sounds

Re: BB vs TI
« Reply #12 on: October 12, 2020, 07:34:49 AM »
One thing the TL072 has going for it is its unusually low demands in terms of attention to PSU decoupling. It tends to remain stable where other op amps will freak out.

JohnRoberts

Re: BB vs TI
« Reply #13 on: October 12, 2020, 10:51:56 AM »
Dear John, I was recently adviced here on this forum about a relatively new FET opamp, the 1642, which has a noise spec almost equal to the NE5532, high slew rate (20V/usec) and ultralow distortion (0.00005%@1KHz). Another one is the OPA1678 which has even better noise specs than the 5532 and it is a CMOS opamp. FET opamps are so good nowadays that it makes little sense using a TL072. The OPA1678 even has lower quiescent current than the TL072.
Dear Dual flip?

That horrible (noisy?) TL07x has roughly 3 uV of input noise. That is down over 100dB below nominal line levels. If you can hear the TL07x input noise you are using it wrong (at too much closed loop gain). Good design practice is to not use TL07x at more than 20dB gain because it runs out of loop gain margin (I like to insure 20dB of loop gain margin at all audio frequencies).

Of course in the 4+ decades since these parts were introduced better technology is now available. I'd be surprised if they stopped improving.  ::)

If I was still active in the mass market design trenches I'd probably have new different go to candidates for low and high impedance sockets. Design engineering for large scale manufacturing involves cost vs. benefit. For one-off DIY projects use whatever you are comfortable paying for. 

As I already shared I recently used a $4 dual CMOS opamp- AD8656ARZ in a one-off design. A remarkable part for 5V rail use. If I was designing for mass production would done this differently. 

I would lower expectations for huge audible differences from swapping out TL07x/NE553x from competent (older?) designs. Prior to those better than audio op amps being widely available in the mid 70s the typical op amps were more like 0.5V/uSec slew rates. 

JR

PS: I am willing to share the one or two sockets were modern parts could make a measurable (not necessarily audible) improvement to my older big console designs. If you own one of my old production series consoles just ask.  8)
Don't only half-ass tune your drums. Visit https://circularscience.com to hear what properly "cleared" drums sound like.

Re: BB vs TI
« Reply #14 on: October 12, 2020, 11:10:09 AM »
Dear Dual flip?

That horrible (noisy?) TL07x has roughly 3 uV of input noise. That is down over 100dB below nominal line levels. If you can hear the TL07x input noise you are using it wrong (at too much closed loop gain). Good design practice is to not use TL07x at more than 20dB gain because it runs out of loop gain margin (I like to insure 20dB of loop gain margin at all audio frequencies).

Of course in the 4+ decades since these parts were introduced better technology is now available. I'd be surprised if they stopped improving.  ::)

If I was still active in the mass market design trenches I'd probably have new different go to candidates for low and high impedance sockets. Design engineering for large scale manufacturing involves cost vs. benefit. For one-off DIY projects use whatever you are comfortable paying for. 

As I already shared I recently used a $4 dual CMOS opamp- AD8656ARZ in a one-off design. A remarkable part for 5V rail use. If I was designing for mass production would done this differently. 

I would lower expectations for huge audible differences from swapping out TL07x/NE553x from competent (older?) designs. Prior to those better than audio op amps being widely available in the mid 70s the typical op amps were more like 0.5V/uSec slew rates. 

JR

PS: I am willing to share the one or two sockets were modern parts could make a measurable (not necessarily audible) improvement to my older big console designs. If you own one of my old production series consoles just ask.  8)

A noise gain of more than 20dB can easily be achieved with stuff like summing amps, also mic preamps or phono amps with a TL07x are a bad idea in my opinion... start stacking up TL072 opamps and you get a noisy equipment. I don't have a problem with the NE553x, I do have a problem with TL07x. Besides, noise is not the only issue, there are a lot more things that make the TL07x undesirable.
« Last Edit: October 12, 2020, 11:15:24 AM by Dualflip »

JohnRoberts

Re: BB vs TI
« Reply #15 on: October 12, 2020, 11:46:29 AM »
A noise gain of more than 20dB can easily be achieved with stuff like summing amps, also mic preamps or phono amps with a TL07x are a bad idea in my opinion...
Which is why no decent design engineer would use a TL07x for a summing amp.  ::)

I actually used an NE5534 as mic preamp in my DJ mixer kit (1978) but that was intended for high Z mics. The NE5534 calculates out to a 9dB NF (noise figure) with a low Z mic, so again a poor choice for low Z mic preamps.

Phono preamps are less obvious (I have design too many phono preamps to list them all). If you inspect the Bode plot (open loop gain) of TL07x op amps, we will see a falling gain plot caused by the internal compensation pole. Then compare that to the RIAA EQ curve, RIAA is ballpark 40dB gain at 1kHz (60dB at 20Hz) but falls off to only 20dB gain at 20kHz, so actually usable (while I never have).   
Quote
start stacking up TL072 opamps and you get a noisy equipment.
If you inspect how noise sources combine to influence noise floors in gear you will find it dominated by early gain stages. Of course high noise gain circuits like VE sum amps with a lot of inputs benefits from modern low ein devices.
Quote
I don't have a problem with the NE553x, I do have a problem with TL07x. Besides, noise is not the only issue, there are a lot more things that make the TL07x undesirable.
I can criticize weaknesses in both but back in the 70s they were a godsend for audio designers. These days we have more options. I am trying to offer perspective... adding a 3 uV noise stage in an audio path with existing noise floor already tens of dB higher noise will be barely measurable, and unlikely to be audible. I am too lazy to do the math but hint it involves square root of sum of squares.

JR

Don't only half-ass tune your drums. Visit https://circularscience.com to hear what properly "cleared" drums sound like.

pucho812

Re: BB vs TI
« Reply #16 on: October 12, 2020, 11:50:13 AM »
another brewery thread off in many directions when all I was doing was making a comment about BB opamps on evilly for about 15 dollars VS brand new BB/TI opamps of the same model for about 5 dollars and in the same quantities....
You tell me whar a man gits his corn pone, en I'll tell you what his 'pinions is.

JohnRoberts

Re: BB vs TI
« Reply #17 on: October 12, 2020, 01:34:11 PM »
Too much information is what I do...  8)

JR
Don't only half-ass tune your drums. Visit https://circularscience.com to hear what properly "cleared" drums sound like.

pucho812

Re: BB vs TI
« Reply #18 on: October 12, 2020, 02:07:03 PM »
Too much information is what I do...  8)

JR
I appreciate all of it. So much to absorb all the time.
You tell me whar a man gits his corn pone, en I'll tell you what his 'pinions is.

john12ax7

Re: BB vs TI
« Reply #19 on: October 12, 2020, 03:12:37 PM »
TLE207x is the newer "improved" version of TL07x often suitable for drop in replacement.  When comparing the two,  differences were both measurable and audible.