scott2000

Re: Burn it Down, Kiss it Goodbye.
« Reply #20 on: January 01, 2021, 08:54:14 PM »
but go on believe what you want if it makes you feel better.

ok Morpheus


sodderboy

Re: Burn it Down, Kiss it Goodbye.
« Reply #21 on: January 02, 2021, 10:04:58 AM »
So here we are in Trump's endgame.  Everyone expected Trump to shout that the election was rigged because a) he's been laying that groundwork for months, and b) he's a whiny little baby who can't believe that he could ever lose anything. 
Unfortunately, GOP legislators and Trump's toadies are more than happy to join him in his delusional quest.  Bill Barr has decided to break with DOJ norms and start looking for imaginary vote fraud before votes have even been certified.  My useless Senators are attacking a Republican SOS for supposedly mishandling the election.  McConnell, Graham, and company are jumping on board to support the Emperor's idiocy. 

If this doesn't stink of wannabe fascism, I don't know what does.  THe GOP has shown its ass, and the darkness at the heart of its soul, in its rallying to Trump.  Disgusting.  Not  a real American among them.

Don't fret.  Little **tch McConnel and Graham are on your side.  They have been since. . . forever.  Look at how Paul Rhyno slow-walked the Trump agenda for two years.  He is on your side as well.  And SCOTUS, They got their's.  Actually, you should be aware that because the majority of the swamp is "on your side" are they really?  Or are you livestock/crop to be maintained and eventually harvested from your minimal partisan news-tritionally-deficient existance?

A simple review of scanned images of "ballots casted" in ALL states would reveal tens, tens, tens, tens of thousands of double-triple dipped ballots, so many of them bogus to begin with.  But don't fret!

But don't fret, NO ONE in the swamp wanted Orange Man as Prez in the first place, so they will **mn well prevent it in the second.

Happy New Year Folks!
Mike

JohnRoberts

Re: Burn it Down, Kiss it Goodbye.
« Reply #22 on: January 02, 2021, 10:50:57 AM »
Different year, same old sierra...

====

last night I watched part of a GA senate sub committee hearing on vote irregularities.

The cloud based open source software used for compiling the vote results seems about as secure as a screen door on a submarine.

The only good news is that by law the paper vote records must be retained for two years, I'd be making sure that actual paper vote record is safely preserved and not accidentally  ::) destroyed. In case a rigorous recount is ever performed, but I don't feel lucky.   

JR
It's nice to be nice....

gyraf

Re: Burn it Down, Kiss it Goodbye.
« Reply #23 on: January 02, 2021, 12:10:19 PM »
..actually, I'd consider being open-source as kinda nice for mission-critical software stuff like this: Anyone can audit the code and yell loudly if real errors are found. Not so much so in any other forms of licencing..

/Jakob E.
..note to self: don't let Harman run your company..

JohnRoberts

Re: Burn it Down, Kiss it Goodbye.
« Reply #24 on: January 02, 2021, 02:19:22 PM »
..actually, I'd consider being open-source as kinda nice for mission-critical software stuff like this: Anyone can audit the code and yell loudly if real errors are found. Not so much so in any other forms of licencing..

/Jakob E.
The criticism is that open source code makes it easier to hack, and that use of off-site cloud servers supervised by one small company in CA are less secure. 

This is not proof of cheating but evidence of opportunity.

Bookkeeping is a very mature discipline with centuries of experience managing sums and count integrity. By law the paper ballots and mail in votes should be preserved for two years.   

JR
It's nice to be nice....

hodad

Re: Burn it Down, Kiss it Goodbye.
« Reply #25 on: January 02, 2021, 04:02:35 PM »

This is not proof of cheating but evidence of opportunity.


And as has been pointed out repeatedly, it would be piss-poor cheating if Dems allowed so many opportunities for Senate seats to go by the wayside. 

Also wondering if the Senate hearing you tuned in for was the one where the star witness was a failed treasure hunter claiming he'd hacked a voting machine.  Seriously, the quality of witnesses brought forth by Republicans in these hearings in various states has been nothing short of astonishing--what a stellar bunch of delusional prevaricators.  Here's an article that came up on a quick search:
https://www.theverge.com/2020/12/31/22208033/jovan-pulitzer-cuecat-georgia-election-fraud-flimflam

pucho812

Re: Burn it Down, Kiss it Goodbye.
« Reply #26 on: January 02, 2021, 05:52:58 PM »
Signed affidavit which carry legal penalties if perjured tells me something was obviously up. How much who knows. If it effected the out come hard to say. But enough affidavits were signed to suggest either these people are so die hard they would go to jail or that perhaps something was unusual.

Regardless of how you feel about Trump, you have to wonder how a guy who was basically in last place, called a racist by his party  and who ran a campaign doing basically nothing managed to get 11 million more votes then obama in 2008? You have to wonder how a guy who was basically dumped on in the primaries managed to win and get a vp pick who only months prior called him a racist.

Seems odd to me.
You tell me whar a man gits his corn pone, en I'll tell you what his 'pinions is.

hodad

Re: Burn it Down, Kiss it Goodbye.
« Reply #27 on: January 02, 2021, 06:15:34 PM »
Regardless of how you feel about Trump...

Seems odd to me.
How I and others feel about Trump is not at all to be disregarded--I think it's fair to say that a distaste for Trump motivated Democratic voters as much as Biden did, and arguably more.  80+ million voters came out because Trump frightens/angers them that much. 
"Seems odd" just doesn't cut it.  You're not winning any arguments with that.

hodad

Re: Burn it Down, Kiss it Goodbye.
« Reply #28 on: January 02, 2021, 06:21:13 PM »
Don't fret.  Little **tch McConnel and Graham are on your side.  They have been since. . . forever.  Look at how Paul Rhyno slow-walked the Trump agenda for two years.  He is on your side as well.  And SCOTUS, They got their's. 
Ha!  This from the guy who four years ago was so excited about Trump getting to appoint Supreme Court justices! 

PS Does anyone know if NPD is contagious??

cyrano

Re: Burn it Down, Kiss it Goodbye.
« Reply #29 on: January 02, 2021, 06:47:27 PM »
The criticism is that open source code makes it easier to hack, and that use of off-site cloud servers supervised by one small company in CA are less secure. 

That's not criticism. It's a demonstration of utter ignorance...
Why is it people love to believe and hate to know?


JohnRoberts

Re: Burn it Down, Kiss it Goodbye.
« Reply #30 on: January 02, 2021, 11:15:54 PM »
That's not criticism. It's a demonstration of utter ignorance...

I know I'm ignorant (but don't know about utter ignorance), I have written more than a little code over the decades). For several years I ran my website on an open source system and it was constantly being hacked.

 we're all ignorant but thanks for the reminder..

Its a shame we can't find some secure digital data structure like blockchain. This seems at cross purposes with the secret vote, but maybe some less ignorant coders can figure it out.

JR
It's nice to be nice....

Recording Engineer

Re: Burn it Down, Kiss it Goodbye.
« Reply #31 on: January 03, 2021, 04:25:57 AM »
Signed affidavit which carry legal penalties if perjured tells me something was obviously up. How much who knows. If it effected the out come hard to say. But enough affidavits were signed to suggest either these people are so die hard they would go to jail or that perhaps something was unusual.

Regardless of how you feel about Trump, you have to wonder how a guy who was basically in last place, called a racist by his party  and who ran a campaign doing basically nothing managed to get 11 million more votes then obama in 2008? You have to wonder how a guy who was basically dumped on in the primaries managed to win and get a vp pick who only months prior called him a racist.

Seems odd to me.

Trump winning doesn’t seem odd at all. I believe it’s exactly what happens when mega-money 24-hour “news” entertainment machines have washed enough brains over enough years, to put party above all else, under absolutely any circumstance.

Then, with Trump being so deep in the swamp, he managed to convince enough of the brain-washed that not only is he not part of the swamp-dwellers, but was in fact going to purge the swamp; a talent only a special certain-kind of swam-dweller can do!

Also, I don’t believe any one of those looney witnesses in any of these endless lawsuits or hearings have ever thought about real consequences. I’m sure they believe every bit of it. But that doesn’t make it true. How many dropped court cases and hearing rodeos before anyone, trying to truly use any kind of reasonable basic logic, can write them off?

Edit: I’m confused by this winning of 11 million votes over Obama in 2008.
« Last Edit: January 03, 2021, 04:45:47 AM by Recording Engineer »

hodad

Re: Burn it Down, Kiss it Goodbye.
« Reply #32 on: January 03, 2021, 11:06:33 AM »


Edit: I’m confused by this winning of 11 million votes over Obama in 2008.

Biden won 11 million more votes in 2020 than Obama did in 2008.  This fact, for certain parties, becomes proof! of election fraud, but they don't try to figure out whether extended early voting periods, easier access to voting, and a base motivated against Trump could have caused such a thing. 
Of course, a majority of the people who really do get elected or work in politics understand this (regardless of what they say publicly), which is why Republicans, including here in Georgia, are already moving to make voting even more difficult than they'd already made it. (Republicans also fail to mention that Trump in 2020 got more votes than Obama 2008, because that might counter their narrative of election fraud!!!!!!.)

The fact that so many on the R side want to ignore is that there are far more Dems than Republicans in this country--the GOP has economic policies that cater to the rich, and they keep their voting numbers high by pandering to racists, homophobes, and xenophobes.  I would argue the party not only panders to but works to gin up that fear and hatred (Kelly Loeffler's attack ads in Georgia would certainly be evidence of that.)  The number of people buying into the wicked combo of the Laffer Curve and white supremacy is shrinking;  Republicans, for their part, are struggling to con more people into joining their party.  Trump did manage to stir up a certain element of voter that typically is less likely to vote, but the manner in which he did it alienated a lot of people and caused division within the GOP--you've got those who cling to Trump because he's so good at motivating the rabble, and you've got those who don't need what Trump brings and are morally repulsed by it.

But failing all else, Republicans will fall back on the classics--vote suppression and extreme gerrymandering.  These are the tools they've been using for years to enhance their power and limit the power of Democratic voters. 

Recording Engineer

Re: Burn it Down, Kiss it Goodbye.
« Reply #33 on: January 03, 2021, 01:57:09 PM »
Got it. Yes that 11 million difference is some strong evidence there...  ::) At best, it’s not even part of the strongest things that makes someone go “hmmm”. ???

Hearing these things, instead, makes me wonder if people are desperately throwing things out to see what sticks; throw enough and strong enough, regardless of how ridiculous, and some things will. It certainly doesn’t do anything to help their case for someone in the middle and seem clearly designed as a rally cry for the base who will lap up anything.
« Last Edit: January 03, 2021, 02:01:55 PM by Recording Engineer »

pucho812

Re: Burn it Down, Kiss it Goodbye.
« Reply #34 on: January 03, 2021, 03:10:02 PM »
Biden won 11 million more votes in 2020 than Obama did in 2008.  This fact, for certain parties, becomes proof! of election fraud, but they don't try to figure out whether extended early voting periods, easier access to voting, and a base motivated against Trump could have caused such a thing. 
Of course, a majority of the people who really do get elected or work in politics understand this (regardless of what they say publicly), which is why Republicans, including here in Georgia, are already moving to make voting even more difficult than they'd already made it. (Republicans also fail to mention that Trump in 2020 got more votes than Obama 2008, because that might counter their narrative of election fraud!!!!!!.)

The fact that so many on the R side want to ignore is that there are far more Dems than Republicans in this country--the GOP has economic policies that cater to the rich, and they keep their voting numbers high by pandering to racists, homophobes, and xenophobes.  I would argue the party not only panders to but works to gin up that fear and hatred (Kelly Loeffler's attack ads in Georgia would certainly be evidence of that.)  The number of people buying into the wicked combo of the Laffer Curve and white supremacy is shrinking;  Republicans, for their part, are struggling to con more people into joining their party.  Trump did manage to stir up a certain element of voter that typically is less likely to vote, but the manner in which he did it alienated a lot of people and caused division within the GOP--you've got those who cling to Trump because he's so good at motivating the rabble, and you've got those who don't need what Trump brings and are morally repulsed by it.

But failing all else, Republicans will fall back on the classics--vote suppression and extreme gerrymandering.  These are the tools they've been using for years to enhance their power and limit the power of Democratic voters.

I never said it was proof of fraud. I said it was odd. I even explained why it was odd.  Clearly you can tell the difference between odd and fraud. 
You tell me whar a man gits his corn pone, en I'll tell you what his 'pinions is.

cyrano

Re: Burn it Down, Kiss it Goodbye.
« Reply #35 on: January 03, 2021, 03:45:41 PM »
I know I'm ignorant (but don't know about utter ignorance), I have written more than a little code over the decades). For several years I ran my website on an open source system and it was constantly being hacked.

 we're all ignorant but thanks for the reminder..

Its a shame we can't find some secure digital data structure like blockchain. This seems at cross purposes with the secret vote, but maybe some less ignorant coders can figure it out.

JR

It wasn't aimed at you, John. It was aimed at the person who puts out such nonsense.

Software isn't secure because it fits in any one category. That's about as stupid as thinking that all German cars are great.

But open source is what you want when it's voting software. Allover Europe, the voting systems code can be reviewed by anyone. And that pays off. Big time, even. Recently, a backdoor was discovered in the Swiss voting system. Before it was in use.

Whomever planted it there, must have considered there was only a slight chance nobody would notice. Only, someone did.

In the US, the early Diebolds ran Windows, with MS Access as a database. Go figure. Personally, I'd never trust that software. But hey, that's me. I've only had to live decades with that combo.
Why is it people love to believe and hate to know?

Scodiddly

Re: Burn it Down, Kiss it Goodbye.
« Reply #36 on: January 03, 2021, 05:24:30 PM »
Closed-source software security is "security through obscurity", the idea that if nobody can see the source then nobody can break the security.  But experience has shown that people get in anyway.  Open-source uses the "many eyes" approach, in that risks can be more easily found and fixed. Plus, would you put your name on crappy code if everybody could see it?

JohnRoberts

Re: Burn it Down, Kiss it Goodbye.
« Reply #37 on: January 03, 2021, 05:43:43 PM »
Got it. Yes that 11 million difference is some strong evidence there...  ::) At best, it’s not even part of the strongest things that makes someone go “hmmm”. ???

Hearing these things, instead, makes me wonder if people are desperately throwing things out to see what sticks; throw enough and strong enough, regardless of how ridiculous, and some things will. It certainly doesn’t do anything to help their case for someone in the middle and seem clearly designed as a rally cry for the base who will lap up anything.
It is mildly amusing (not) that the exact same data is used to argue both sides of the same argument. Statistical analysis is widely used to identify fraud in many industries.

But that is not the actual argument just one popular talking point, as our uber-influencers tell us what stuff actually means.  :-(

I have been trying to pay attention for the last few decades and the vote system appears to be getting more robust. While it kills trees I very much prefer the paper ballot approach over the former touch screen that was difficult (impossible) to chronicle.

In the big picture votes are part confidence game to insure a peaceful transition of power. Our founders put more effort into limiting what the actual elected legislators could do, than making sure the right side won...

I am looking forward to the next couple acts of this political theater. I wouldn't mind a return to government that we can safely ignore between elections, but I don't feel lucky.

While I remain optimistic.

JR
It's nice to be nice....

hodad

Re: Burn it Down, Kiss it Goodbye.
« Reply #38 on: January 03, 2021, 06:53:16 PM »

In the US, the early Diebolds ran Windows, with MS Access as a database. Go figure. Personally, I'd never trust that software.

Even worse:  Back when Diebold's voting machines were first used here in Georgia (2000), they had a virtually hack-proof password for the system--"12345."  I'm not absolutely thrilled with the system we have now, but my initial impression is that it is a vast improvement.

Re: Burn it Down, Kiss it Goodbye.
« Reply #39 on: January 03, 2021, 07:29:30 PM »
In 2004 here in Ireland some bright spark minister spent 51 million euros on E-voting machines , the vulnerabillity of the  machines was discovered and they ended up put into storage never even having been used at a cost of 800,000 euros a year . They wound up getting back 9 euros a piece for scrap on 7,500 machines recouping about 70,000 euros of the original outlay of 54 million .


 

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