[living sounds]

Yes, thanks John for looking that up!

Pucho812 did the same thing in another thread some time ago with a fake list of Obama's supposed failings.

At this point it is clear that the modus operandi is fully inductive (= I don't like the Left/Obama etc. so let's find stuff to confirm my point) instead of deductive (let's look at all the facts and draw conclusions from them).

Someone who appears to be incapable of deductive reasoning where it matters to their ideology/identity is called a "true beliver", and there is no point engaging with them. Thus I vow to really stop it this time. 

[midwayfair]

I didn't post that so everyone could dump on Pucho.

EDIT: I'll remove the rest of what I had here, jesus this place sometimes.

[crazydoc]

A POTUS quote (though he stole it) to go by in the near future, and should have been used last week: "When the looting starts, the shooting starts."

[pucho812]

Dumping on pucho is nothing new.  It’s not even a right and wrong anymore, it’s my side or nothing, we are right you are wrong. Something that won’t get us anywhere.  I have seen leaders on both sides for what they are, people who are rich saying the reason you are not rich is because it’s the other party.
Saw 60 minutes last night and out of all the puff piece stuff the reporter asked one serious question about why it took 8 months to do covid relief. Pelosi had the nerve to blame everyone else but her own. I was surprised the reporter pushed on her saying something along of the lines how it was pelosi as well. Something I would agree to, that it was not just one side at fault. Pelosi wouldn’t have it and continued to blame just the one party.
As I stated previously I should know better then to discuss things with people who feel they have the moral high ground.

Time will ultimately tell what is what and I don’t have enough of it left to spend it arguing with people about politics in an electronics forum. Especially since there are very few of you who I ever met in life who politics aside were awesome. It drove away a lot of great people over the years.   So rather then start Monday with agita....

[living sounds]

I don't want things to get personal, but I guess that is nevertheless how it comes across.

I agree we are wasting our time here. And I know things would be different in RL, typing away at night on a keyboard is not the best way to do a discussion.

Don't we all think we have the moral high ground? The people who thought of themselves as "patriots" at the Capitol certainly did.

Anyway, back to making music and building gear. 

[cyrano]

Time for healing... 

[hodad]

Time for healing... 

Healing requires accountability and remorse from those who attacked our democracy, stormed the Capitol (or incited, funded or supported the mob) and set out to overthrow our democracy. The culprits do not get to set the timeline for reconciliation before they can be held responsible for their participation in an attempted coup.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2021/01/12/you-want-healing-here-are-some-ideas/
(BTW, the author of this column used to be a leading voice in Republican punditry until her opposition to Trump changed all that.)

EDIT:
Joint Chiefs of Staff preparing rare message to entire force of reassurance: reminding them the job is to support & defend Constitution and reject extremism. Its a significant step.

I don't think we've gotten to the healing stage yet--do you?

[Scodiddly]

I don't think we've gotten to the healing stage yet--do you?

That will come after the tumor has been cut out.

[cyrano]

Healing only requires a willingness to forgive.

Yes, "they" were wrong. And "they" won't ever be held accountable, mainly because there's only one culprit and a lot of believers.

It may be dumb to believe, but it's not a sin. To mislead, however is a sin.

[hodad]

there's only one culprit and a lot of believers.

Actually many culprits, some of whom predate Trump but set the stage for his rise (Karl Rove and Newt Gingrich, eg), some of whom aided in his ascendancy (Bannon et al), some of whom enacted his horrible policy (Bill Barr, Stephen Miller), and some of whom were in a mutually parasitic relationships with Trump, feeding off one another to the benefit of both (McConnell).  There are plenty of culprits who deserve to lose jobs, reputation, and a bit of jail time in many cases. 

As for healing, why don't we start with some deprogramming?  Republicans are still hypnotized by his nonsense;  I'm not sure any real healing will occur until they snap out of it. 

[cyrano]

You know how that will turn out. Some useful random idiots will be punished. The real powers will never be touched.

Don't look back too much. Look forward. There's Covid and climate to deal with...

[hodad]

You know how that will turn out. Some useful random idiots will be punished. The real powers will never be touched.

Don't look back too much. Look forward. There's Covid and climate to deal with...

Meanwhile, Trump is using his last days in office to try to undermine efforts to deal with both of those problems and many more. 

No forgiveness without contrition.  That's happened way too many times with the GOP in recent years, and it always results in the same sh!t, only worse.  Sorry.

[cyrano]

Sounds like revenge in stead of justice...

A bit like "Don't get mad, get even". Which is one of the stupidest things I've ever heard.

[hodad]

Sounds like revenge in stead of justice...

A bit like "Don't get mad, get even". Which is one of the stupidest things I've ever heard.

Nope.  If you look back at the last 20+ years of American politics, the GOP has a knack  for doing bad stuff (like lying the country into war in Iraq, let's say),  and when they get caught or someone tries to hold them accountable, there's alway some lame-ass excuse like, "That's water under the bridge," or "We need to move forward, not back," or "Impeachment would be too inflammatory."  That's the cruel irony of the title of this thread:  The GOP, which likes to consider itself the "party of personal responsibility," shows no responsibility at all when it comes to their own misdeeds.  In fact, they'll do or say just about anything  to avoid the consequences when they're the ones who committed the bad deeds. 

A look back will reveal just how many times GOP evildoers have been allowed to slide, to suffer no consequences or little more than a gentle chiding.  And it will show just how very willing most Republicans are to defend or enable the evildoers in their midst. 

What you'll find is that this one-sided "let the healing begin" approach has emboldened the right to the point that their chosen leader invites his followers to attack Congress, and for most Republicans this is no big deal.  "Healing" has not worked. 

There are certain people who will never be decent human beings without the threat of serious punishment (Trump comes to mind.)  There are those who, if allowed to skate when they do wrong, will continue to push the envelope and see how far they can go without getting punished--wrongdoing becomes commonplace and an accepted or even encouraged within this group.  Punishment generally need not be that severe within the latter group, but among the former, the incorrigibles,  it generally needs to be both uniform and severe. 

I think about this quote from Flannery O'Connor:  “She would've been a good woman," said The Misfit, "if it had been somebody there to shoot her every minute of her life.” 

If somebody had a gun to Trump's head every minute(metaphorically speaking), he might actually do the right thing.

So yeah.  Punishment.  Justice.  People taking responsibility for their actions and paying a price for their misdeeds.  In this of all times the need for justice should be clearly evident. 

[cyrano]

Believers seek punishment. Crucifying DT would make him even more attractive to the believers.

Don't turn him into a martyr.

[cyrano]

Too late. DT is impeached:

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-55656385

[hodad]

Believers seek punishment.

Your various slogans have a charming ring to them--regardless of any truth or applicability to this particular situation.  What I'm saying is the sort of "healing" that would be likely to happen in the US (and has occurred in the past) does nothing to stop the offenders (and those who come after them) from doing still worse. 
George W. Bush and Karl Rove look benign compared to Trump, but the fact that they did what they did (and were in no way punished) cleared the path for Trump.

Maybe there's a different approach to this "healing" that somehow causes or allows people to learn from their errors.  That's not what we've seen here before, it's not what Republicans are seeking.  What Republicans want is no punishment so they can continue doing bad things and do even worse than Trump next time they have a chance. 

Nobody learns, nobody is chastened.  The only "personal growth":  Republicans grow to be better criminals and con artists. 

[cyrano]

Well, maybe you're right. It's just my feeling 'bout it.

And yes, I was sounding like the pastor, there, wasn't I?

[hodad]

Well, maybe you're right. It's just my feeling 'bout it.

And yes, I was sounding like the pastor, there, wasn't I?

Ideas that sound wonderful are great if they work.  Unfortunately, I think in the US those wonderful sounding ideas tend to be a cover for doing nothing but excusing wrongdoing.  South Africa's Truth & Reconciliation Commission may have fallen between your ideas & mine.  Not sure something like that is exactly applicable in this situation, but it seems like a good combination of acceptance of responsibility/finding of truth with a large element of forgiveness/amnesty and a forward-looking attitude.

[cyrano]

There's already a new story in the works...

A French programmer and musician, music pirate, former Gentoo and Debian dev, Wikipedia editor... seems to have donated over half a million $ in Bitcoin to several Alt-right personalities one month before the attack on the Capitol. There's all the usual stuff. Hacking, doom metal music... to turn this into a juicy media item. You'll probably see it on several mainstream sites tomorrow.

The guy, who goes on the net by the handle "pankkake" has probably committed suicide shortly after the donation. He's not only a Covid denier, he's also a pedophilia apologist on wikipedia:

https://infogalactic.com/info/Wikipedia_and_pedophilia

I won't post his real name here, as his sites under that name all have been taken offline, including the one containing his suicide note. In that note he mentions the decline of the Western civilisation as his primary motive to donate his bitcoins to the US alt-right. Besides, his real name is kind of common, so it might lead to confusion. If you google "pankkake", you'll come across it anyway.

Money, responsibility, and a plan.

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