Headphones for Mixing and Mastering

Whoops said:

In Mastering headphones are really useful for fades, clicks, noise , but tey're also used as a reference in conjunction with the other monitor systems. They're one more tool, one more reference, some people use them more than others but I can guarantee you that they're used.

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That's a fair statement, I don't doubt there are some.  I just meant that I hadn't heard of it, either first hand from the horse's mouth, or read about/watched in interview etc. 
I'm not a mastering engineer so my own opinion isn't worth much on that subject, but I do personally think they're a valuable and good tool or reference, just as you said. 

Winston O'Boogie said:

I daresay fixing some mixes done on phones keeps you busy though

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I get a lot of mixes with exaggerated width. I assume they were mixed on headphones most of the time. I'm digging my M/S Barry Porter EQ. It's like having 1.5 EQ's. I could only do M/S ITB before so it was much less easy to use. Boost mid, cut side.

Whoops said:

In Mastering headphones are really useful for fades, clicks, noise , but tey're also used as a reference in conjunction with the other monitor systems. They're one more tool, one more reference, some people use them more than others but I can guarantee you that they're used.

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I can't think of one mastering engineer I know who uses more than one set of speakers let alone headphones as an audio reference. They must be out there but I know many if not most of the ME's in NY.

Gold said:

I can't think of one mastering engineer I know who uses more than one set of speakers let alone headphones as an audio reference. They must be out there but I know many if not most of the ME's in NY.

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I remember Andy Vandette and Howie Weinberg using them...

But I'm not really interested in going into a piss contest, it's another tool you can use or not

Gold said:

I get a lot of mixes with exaggerated width. I assume they were mixed on headphones most of the time. I'm digging my M/S Barry Porter EQ. It's like having 1.5 EQ's. I could only do M/S ITB before so it was much less easy to use. Boost mid, cut side.

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That's great, I'm glad you're digging the M/S on the Porter EQ, probably takes less than half the time as before.  Also nice that you're getting more and more use out of 'Shaker'.

Edit insert: Yes, getting width as you want can be a learning curve on headphones.
There are a few classical recording engineers who have occasionally only been able to use phones on site, and also mixed the whole thing live to stereo.  I suppose some TV would have to be that way too.  That's pretty good skills.

Re. your earlier post - I've had AKG 240's, as have lots of folks of course.  They're a proven tool, and if they allow you to do what you need on them, I can attest that they're 'shop-proof'.  I abused mine almost to the point of it being a war crime.    You can't really go wrong for the price.

Whoops said:

I remember Andy Vandette and Howie Weinberg using them...

But I'm not really interested in going into a piss contest, it's another tool you can use or not

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I'm sure Paul, and certainly me too, consider your opinion as being just as valid as ours or anybody's.
Both of us say that, although we don't know any personally, we don't doubt that there are M.E.s who use them.  And you provided 2 names of folks who do so, all good man 

Whoops said:

I remember Andy Vandette and Howie Weinberg using them...

But I'm not really interested in going into a piss contest, it's another tool you can use or not

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That’s the old Masterdisk. I was thinking currently but I was never in those rooms then either.

I have nothing against using whatever you want. I just couldn’t think of any ME’s who did.

Winston O'Boogie said:

Re. your earlier post - I've had AKG 240's, as have lots of folks of course.  They're a proven tool, and if they allow you to do what you need on them, I can attest that they're 'shop-proof'.  I abused mine almost to the point of it being a war crime.    You can't really go wrong for the price.

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I bought a damaged pair of AKG K240 some years ago for cheap, at the time I thought it would be a nice project to restore them but I never did and I actually forgot I had them, but now that you guys recommended them I became motivated to fix them and try them out

If I somehow was forced to master on headphones I’m sure I could figure it out. I’m not a white glove engineer. I got my Sony headphones when I got a CD player around 1985 on my way to college. I much prefer listening on speakers. Besides listening at home I used them for live sound gigs. I like big speakers even better.

I still have the set of little ADC speakers I used for years. They have wall mount brackets and the ports are tuned to be mounted on a wall. That with an NAD amp is a kick ass setup. I still use an NAD receiver at home.

Ever consider trying those Headphone correction plugins?
Sonarworks or Tonebooster  Morphit etc...?
They actually help regarding mixing judgment when using headphones.
As for listening purpose, i have to admit that i was impressed by the Audeze brand and their mid to high end series, but that's a lot of cash..., but worth it if you can't afford a better acoustics for listening etc....

Hopefully it’s uncontroversial to say the ideal is to have one reference that you trust.  Most mastering engineers work in the same room with the same equipment every day. Generally you are able to learn to trust the room. If you work in various locations under various conditions having more references helps.

I don’t need to rely on headphones as an audio reference because I trust what I hear in my room. I’ve never tried any correction software. Not everything I do goes through the computer so I’m not sure I could even use the software.

Sure, my post was a general answer to the thread...
But yes, it all depends on what people have and reference too...

I use ATH-M50, Audio Technica, I love them. Almost everything I mix and master with them sounds perfect in speakers.
I never tried Beyerdynamic ones but DT770 and DT990 are very loved and I want to try them someday.

sessizmod said:

I use ATH-M50, Audio Technica, I love them. Almost everything I mix and master with them sounds perfect in speakers.
I never tried Beyerdynamic ones but DT770 and DT990 are very loved and I want to try them someday.

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The ATH-M50 are very accurate. I used Sonys for years. They're more upper mid forward imho.

aaquilato said:

The ATH-M50 are very accurate. I used Sonys for years. They're more upper mid forward imho.

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Third on the ATH-M50s. I’ve gone through probably 6 or 7 pairs of earpads on the same pair of cans. The ear pads are like $8 from their parts center.

Had mine for around 13 years and still they are my most trusted reference.

As someone said, the best reference is the thing you know.

I’m going to try the new Neumann headphones as I have their monitors in my new control room and they share a similar profile (or so says Neumann)

Murdock said:

big fan of the older k240 models.

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I, too, like the K240 and my example is decades old and still sounds good. They are, however, a bit sterile and lack any sort of special excitement - still, very flat curve and quite honest sounding. James - K8JHR

Winston OBoogie said:

Andrew Scheps has mixed quite a few things using purely those. ... He has more than one Grammy to his name so they can't be all bad.

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Good Humor Sidebar No. 209873 -- Um ... ahem ... receiving a Grammy Award is hardly a persuasive headphone endorsement considering Dr. Dre has won multiple Grammy Awards name appears on a whole slew of really expensive, yet awful sounding headphones around the globe. There is a popular expression: "Friends don't let friends wear Beats headphones."

Just ... ahem ... saying. - surely there must be a better criterion! James - K8JHR

No love for the Beyer DT880s? They are intentionally less treble-boosted and the "pro" version is marketed explicitly for mixing and mastering (still bright, though). I remember trying one of the Sennheisers, the 650 I think, and being very disappointed. They are very forward in the upper-midrange, which gives them a congested sound imo. Also had a pair of the ubiquitous HD280s. Same issue, and the pads wore out in about 6 months, which would be ok if it was just a little wear, but they also had a nasty habit of slipping off the retaining rings, and are a bitch to remount. Granted, these are really the "sm57s" of headphones, not really intended for critical applications.

Not sure how accurate these "scientific" measurements are, but they are somewhat useful:
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...ynamic-dt-880-600-ohm-review-headphone.24694/
Here the 880s are praised for their midrange reproduction and maligned for bass distortion. Not a big deal to me; it's imperceptible as far as I can tell. I tend to favor very "airy" sounds--lots of info above 10k. The boost helps rein in my unnatural tendency, and when I check my mixes on consumer equipment, they tend to sound balanced enough.

MicMaven said:

Good Humor Sidebar No. 209873 -- Um ... ahem ... receiving a Grammy Award is hardly a persuasive headphone endorsement considering Dr. Dre has won multiple Grammy Awards name appears on a whole slew of really expensive, yet awful sounding headphones around the globe. There is a popular expression: "Friends don't let friends wear Beats headphones."

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If you didn't understand what "Winston OBoogie" was saying then I can rephrase it.
Andrew Scheps has mixed a tremendous amount of great sounding records only using Sony MDR-7506 headphones as monitoring.

He finds it works for him, and by listening to his mixes and the quality of the end result, I can say that it works pretty well.

andYz00m said:

Third on the ATH-M50s.

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In contrast, I find the ATH-M50 have heavy, thick lows with weak mids and modest treble. Not excessive bass, but thicker than, say, the AKG K240 which I find almost blandly neutral and honest with a flat, even response curve across the range, which is not a bad thing, but not musically exciting for listening long term. I much prefer the AT-M40 which is far more neutral and balanced top to bottom than the ATH-M50, and more musically exciting than the K240. I sold them because they have multiple ways to fold flat or reverse ear cups, making them floppy sloppy and awkward to handle. I do not like having to sort them out every time I put them on. (Yeah, I know that has no impact on audio quality, but one tends to avoid tools which are awkward to use, even if they do the job.)

Happily, I recently acquired the Austrian Audio Hi-X15 (which uses the same driver as its much more expensive siblings) and I am very pleased with both its sound, build and comfort. Not quite as neutral as the AKG k240, and rather close to the analytical, yet musical, ATH-M40 in sound - they a very comfortable and affordable at $110. Well balanced across the frequency curve with good articulation and detail without being brash, sibilant, or shrill as some other, especially open back, cans are.

And that is just MY take. Your mileage may differ. James K8JHR