Audio Historians - REDD/RCA/Langevin/RFT Lorentz/WSW

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As I research some details there is one connection I am not getting.

When or How did REDD exist prior to EMI? There is mixed notes stating REDD was the in house team for EMI, however they did exist prior to this arrangement.

Was it Len Page alone who created the designs and then teamed up with EMI later with Peter Bukowski?

Or did Page and Bukowski work together prior to EMI on REDD.

Thanks for any clarification.
 
Hello GDIY

Some thoughts after spending the night researching the Neve Tube Console. Most of this info is known but thought I would share my findings.

First thing to note is how Mr. Neve' wife Evelyn was invovled from very early on in the development of the "Neve" brand and even prior. As I understand the image I shared was the first Rupert Neve console built for Desmond Leslie to track sound design for an EMI recording of Shakespear as well as an album called The Future Of Music in a style called Musice Concrete which was spearheaded by Pierre Schaffer in the early to mid 50's.

Then of course came Neve being established in 1961 and the Recorded Sound LTD consoles Doug has reffered too I beleive in the past.

What is more interesting is the Mr. Neve was hesitant to discuss his Tube designs as it was not what he actually did.

It was built prior to Neve being branded in 1961, although being a Neve console it seems to be at the end of CQ Audio' lifecycle.

From here our storline veers off into the Neve consoles Mr. Thompson-Bell worked on. Should have something up on our website in the form of a timeline this week.

Thanks!

 

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matriachamplification said:
As I research some details there is one connection I am not getting.

When or How did REDD exist prior to EMI? There is mixed notes stating REDD was the in house team for EMI, however they did exist prior to this arrangement.

Was it Len Page alone who created the designs and then teamed up with EMI later with Peter Bukowski?

Or did Page and Bukowski work together prior to EMI on REDD.

Thanks for any clarification.

As I think I mentioned somewhere in this thread, Len Page worked for E.M.I. under Alan Blumlein going back as far as the 1930's.  Blumlein was, of course, killed in a plane crash during the second world war while on a test flight for the radar system which he was working on for the war effort. 

REDD was simply a department of E.M.I. set up in 1955 and headed by Len Page.  Record Engineering Development Department. 

The name of the engineer who worked at E.M.I.'s studio in Cologne who helped with th desk design was Peter Burkowitz, not Bukowski.

There were also various other engineers who worked on EMI's stereo recording system that the REDD desks were designed around and for - their so-called  'Stereosonic' system - and there's an AES paper by Vanderlyn et al. that I posted a link to earlier in this thread.
This stereosonic system was a continuation of the work that Blumlein did in the 1930's for E.M.I. and very much used the mathematical proofs  he worked out that showed stereo can be represented by Sum and Difference as well as Left and Right.
 
Actually, taking a back pedal in this discussion, it just dawned on me why desks in Europe likely had pan-pots early on, while US desks did not.

This would likely be because Blumlein's formula for stereo included using the first quadrant of sine and cosine functions to represent left and right signal levels, which we know now as the 'constant power' rule.

I know talented folks in the U.S. also worked on stereo recording going back as far as Blumlein's own work, but I'm pretty certain the system there used spaced microphones which made use of the time delay too rather than just level difference.
 
Winston,

Also, I recommend reading that paper by  Clarke, Dutton and Vanderlyn that you posted as it gives you an insight to the ‘Shuffler’ circuit and control on the REDD consoles, and why the consoles and their controls are laid out the way they are.  It then becomes obvious that the consoles were designed to physically implement the research of that paper.

They were very much ahead of their time.

They also describe some subtle nuances in the way panning should be done in order to get a realistic stereo image.

Cheers

Mike
 
July 1st 1958 is the date of the first NBC stereo broadcast, Bert Parks Bandstand, David Sarser at the controls.  Someone on the Ampex List shared an mp3 from a CD-R Sarser had shared, it sounds amazing.  Listeners are instructed to tune two radios to two different stations to get the experience.  It sounds like very close Blumlein with a couple spot mics for soloists, though it's possible it's a very well spaced pair, it collapses to mono very nicely.
 
Winston O'Boogie said:
As I think I mentioned somewhere in this thread, Len Page worked for E.M.I. under Alan Blumlein going back as far as the 1930's.  Blumlein was, of course, killed in a plane crash during the second world war while on a test flight for the radar system which he was working on for the war effort. 

REDD was simply a department of E.M.I. set up in 1955 and headed by Len Page.  Record Engineering Development Department. 

The name of the engineer who worked at E.M.I.'s studio in Cologne who helped with th desk design was Peter Burkowitz, not Bukowski.

Thank you very much!

Noted on all posts. I am now laying out a timeline and design on our website.

More soon :)
 
Winston O'Boogie said:
I'm not sure of the exact year off hand, but it's interesting to me that EMI failed to renew the patents granted to Blumlein for his stereo techniques in the '30's  when the time ran out in the mid 1950's.  I suppose at that point, those techniques became fair game.
There is a story that when RCA "invented" the stereo microgroove record they offered to license it to EMI who promptly showed them their own prior (Blumlein) patent for the idea and suggested that instead RCA should license it from them.

Cheers

Ian
 
I can't remember if I've ever posted this picture on here or not. 
It's the prototype for the REDD.37 desk built in Germany by CLG for the EMI Pathé-Marconi studio near Paris.

No Painton quadrant faders, no provision for switching out the eq type between 'pop' & 'classic'...
Still, I wouldn't kick it out of bed at night or say "no thanks" if I had the chance to own it. 

 

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Winston O'Boogie said:
I can't remember if I've ever posted this picture on here or not. 
It's the prototype of the REDD.37 desk. 

No Painton quadrant faders, no provision for switching out the eq type between 'pop' & 'classic'...
Still, I wouldn't kick it out of bed at night or say "no thanks" if I had the chance to own it.

What a Gem! Would this prototype include the V72? mic pres?
 
Thanks for the info Winston! I understand the bulk of it :) Furthermore it helped us to focus on a single REDD console instead of trying to sort through them all at the same time.

If I may rant for a second.

Truth be told this thread alone has aided my family and I, 1 million times more in a few weeks, then all of the Pro Audio  Manufacturing Industry combined has in 10 years. This includes countless Audio DIY kit providers who were all WAY better then corporate entities. Says something about the state of the industry when owners of corporations won't even take the time to discuss things. After being told where to go, how to get there, (and in one case from the owner of a VERY popular company, everything that was wrong with my  "disability"), by several major pro audio manufacturing company owners, we decided to make a documentary that shares our positive and negative experiences in Pro Audio. Plus, they are not aloud in our club :)

This is a reason why I started on this journey being my distaste for pro audio distribution and the lack of knowledge these national representatives have of the company and products they are severely misrepresenting. However we are not going to create drama in an online forum, these companies and their owners can wait until the documentary is completed to back paddle.

sorry... had to get that out "_

Here is our first official initiative.

Sixty Forty - The Independent Order of Recording Console Engineers & Developers

Shared is one of several official banners for our program.

Embroidered Baseball Hat Design.

I know this branding non-sense seems lowbrow for this group, but it is what I am working on :)

Be Well

Wall
 

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Winston O'Boogie said:
Personally, I'd name and shame on here but, up to you.  Nevertheless, don't let 'em get ya down  :)

Here's a little "short" from 1961 (so pre Beatles) which has clips of the REDD.37 being used at Abbey Road:

https://youtu.be/pWSqOvqdO-M

Thanks! I stopped letting others get me down years ago :) I work better on positive solutions.

The video is AMAZING! Outside of the REDD.37 footage, the cigarette butt transition is so indicative of the times and may be my very favourite film time lapse ever.

I would REALLY love some feedback on our official 60/40 logo. I am no professional artist and feedback helps me create better versions.

First Order Inductees names to be added. (Fonts are hard)

Doug Williams
Ian Thompson-Bell
David Hinson
Len Page
Richard Sweetenham
Rupert Neve
Peter Burkowitz

Look forward to hearing any feedback.
 

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Hey... sorry for de-railing the thread.

Winston is there any information about the type of transformers or even tube types used in the REDD.37?

We have been learning a lot about Ed Reichenbach and thought it would be worth while to discussion, transformers mainly.
 
Hello GDIY

At this point my family and I will be off GDIY as we are now officially head down building our CTC design as well as the online interactive 3D models for our presentation platform.

We won't undersell the explosion that our interactive studio/gear builder video game that is built around actual fact and DIY designs that the player can build at home in real life.

The user is guided through time and the evolution of the recording console with focus on CTC, NEVE, HELIOS, REDD, RCA and BBC.

The cost to build these high def 3D models is still being confirmed, but will include a guided narrative walkthrough of the ARS studio seen in the Helen Shapiro video shared earlier by David.

Our only question now comes from Devis our model designer and art director for our project.

Specs and pictures of the REDD.37 and the ARS Tape Machines are requested. This way we can create as accurate a model as possible.

This may feel tongue and cheek to many but please allow me the benefit of the doubt and understand we do have a direct pipeline to Canadian Grant Funding for Disabled and Deaf artists.

So... I am clinically "Deaf" with my hearing phasing into oblivion each day, now you know. A Hearing Impairment Otherwise Undiagnosable is my medical designation. I have been sine 3 years old.

AND YET! I am a successful award winning VIdeo Game Audio Director. How? Well, I am just that damn good at creative audio and video game development (C++ coding language)

To be blunt. Winning awards and allocates from Dr. Stephen Hawking (RIP) does not go unnoticed in certain circles/ I HATE talking about my accomplishments but feel if you are going to support our team, Mr. Thompson-Bell, Mr. Doug Williams, Mr. David Hinson, myself and Devis, you should be aware of the growing interest in my return to the game industry.

Console
The Interactive 3D Sandbox Game about Sound

Looking for people to do voice overs and create custom lectures for our platform.

If you got something to say, and a way to track high quality voice overs, lets talk.

We are swamped. Should have a rough cut of a teaser trailer ready hopefully today.

Designs of the Past, Made for the Future

Really sink your head into the possibilities of education, pro audio education, on a AAA gaming platform. By controlling the narrative of player interaction we can direct the player to learn real life lessons while gaminigng their exeprience.

Its likely over many peoples heads... but it is happening. March 2022, full push begins.
 
I have handed off the task of accessing Abbey Roads Studios REDD documentation to my entertainment lawyer.

I will be informing here about this process and hope, Mr. Thompson-Bell or Mr. Hinson can aid in this as it develops. I have been informed I am not allowed to leave the Country due to my medical treatments.
 
Lastly'ish

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_dealing_in_Canadian_copyright_law

I can use any music, film, image etc... that we choose without having to even ask permission.

Want to witness me dismantle the Pro Audio industry from the Inside Out?

Payback is coming and the entire entertainment industry is under trial!

In a fun way :)
 
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