pucho812

Re: Right to Repair
« Reply #20 on: March 24, 2021, 06:54:23 PM »
I just dealt with this recently.

I emailed a pro audio company(leaving the name out to avoid unwanted issues) with the only contact they have on their website for any sort of tech support. I was very specific asking for a connector in one of their units. That a client had broken the jack and I needed to replace it.  I got an e-mail back where it got kicked around from low level  support to upper level support.  When I finally got a written response other then the standard form email, I was met with do I have EE experience and that  we don't hand out schematics, we don't help in these cases, if you need something fixed send it to "insert repair shop here" and any damage incurred from my work would be on my and they are not liable.  I wrote back explain I wasn't asking for schematics, or help, I was hoping to order a jack so I can replace a broken one.  I went on to explain how I normally would have rigged a panel mount jack and wires to the PCB but due to layout and spacing I can only  put back the jack they use. I left them a small sample of work and places I worked. I repeated how  I just want to buy this jack here. can you please sell it to me.  They eventually said yes and told me the warehouse is closed but will stop in and get me what i need.  I won't even go into the costs, that shipping was easily 1000% markup on a dollar part.

I still do not need schematics.  I just need to replace a cracked plastic jack, but the amount of work it took just to get a price and part number so I can order said part was absurd.  lets see if I have that info this week.
You tell me whar a man gits his corn pone, en I'll tell you what his 'pinions is.


Re: Right to Repair
« Reply #21 on: March 24, 2021, 07:27:05 PM »
Back in the day even radios had schematics printed on the battery cover, consoles used to be supplied with full schematics and so on.

Whoops

Re: Right to Repair
« Reply #22 on: March 24, 2021, 09:30:15 PM »
Back in the day even radios had schematics printed on the battery cover, consoles used to be supplied with full schematics and so on.

Yes, and a lot of those radios and amplifiers still work today.
But how many of the cheap electronic stuff we are using nowadays will be working in 15 years?
They will all be electronic waste in a landfill somewhere in a poor country.

I really wish that schematics will be mandatory to come with the user manual.

Re: Right to Repair
« Reply #23 on: March 25, 2021, 02:22:18 AM »
Yes, and a lot of those radios and amplifiers still work today.
But how many of the cheap electronic stuff we are using nowadays will be working in 15 years?
They will all be electronic waste in a landfill somewhere in a poor country.

I really wish that schematics will be mandatory to come with the user manual.

I guess that the big problem is the massive amount of corporate theft there is now, just look at Samsung and Apple, they are suing themselves everyday. Back in the golden days it was less likely that countries like China (or Japan back then) would take that schematic, make a cheap version and then sell it for 1/10 the cost of the original. In Audio, I guess that Behringer and similar companies are the ones to blame. Mackie sued Behringer countless times for shamelessly copying their products, however Mackie now has all of their schematics available at their webpage.

A professor of mine who used to work in advanced technology told me that companies such as Intel (IIRC), and similar, in many cases no longer patent their new products, because technology moves so fast that by the time the patent process is granted or whatever it becomes obsolete, unless it is something really important then of course it will be patented.

In the 90s and early 2000s it was customary to have access to the battery of equipment, because it was obvious that after some time, the battery charge capability will decrease and you would need to replace the battery, you could even buy several cell phone batteries and chargers and easily replace the drained battery with a fresh one, then it came the iPod, the first one, I remember buying one at BestBuy and they would offer you an extended 3 or 5 year warranty for battery replacement, because the iPod is one of the first devices I remember that didn't have access to the battery and I remember truly disliking that, I couldn't believe it to be honest.

Today that is extremely common, things are no longer meant to work more than 3 or 5 years or even less, that is why you cant even replace the battery in phones or stuff like that, if the battery dies, the equipment dies and you buy a new one. In fact, with my cell phone provider I have a contract that after a year or two you can get a new equipment for "free" (its not free because you already paid for it) but who would keep their old phone if you can get a new one in 1-2 years? Some printers (specially laser) today are so cheap that when they run out of ink sometimes it is cheaper to buy a new printer than a new cartridge!

I think lean manufacturing is great but this is one result of such ideology, also society has changed their perception of what they consider valuable, in my grandparent's days, sturdiness, construction and longevity was a sign of quality, TVs and radios were practically pieces of furniture not meant to be replaced in a few years time, a scene from Jurassic Park comes to mind, when they are in the van in the middle of the night next to the T-Rex cage, and one of the children finds some night vision goggles, then one of the adults asks "Are they heavy?" the child answers "yes" the adult replies something like "Then they are expensive, don't touch them", today its quite the opposite!

What people find valuable is what is new, there is a new phone which is 1.5mm thinner than the previous one? they want it, a phone with 3 camera lenses instead of one? they want it. So the policy now is not to overengineer things, design things with the latest features but with the minimum cost, and just make sure it works for a minimum life span of 2-3 years. TVs constantly stop working due to capacitor failure in the SMPS, even the big name companies like LG, Sony, Samsung use the cheapest capacitors that will last only for a few years. I've talked to TV repair technicians and a great majority of their work is just replacing electrolytic capacitors.

Also, there is no longer the culture of repairing stuff, my brother owns a factory, and he has several hi-end machines, he once called me because there was a problem with a power supply and they needed to do something urgent, I identified a high current diode as one of the sources of the problem, and the inhouse service engineer hired by my brother just replaced the entire power supply. I have seen this over and over and over, its like why bother going to college if all you are going to do is replace the entire board or the entire thing? My parents recently bought a very expensive flat screen TV, it started failing shortly after they bought it, they called tech support, the technician came in, opened the TV, replaced the entire motherboard and that was it, the whole process probably didn't take longer than 20 minutes.

Through the last semesters of my undergraduate education in college, I was offered a job at a repair center, the whole job was trying to salvage boards at the component level that were blindly replaced by field technicians, I don't know the end purpose of the repaired boards, I don't know if the purpose was to sell refurbished equipment, use them for repair jobs by field technicians or to re-use the boards in new equipment. The pay was low and I didn't have enough time so I declined.

And of course, there is the fact of planned obsolesence, apps no longer supporting old devices, software not supporting old OSs and such.

Clothing is very similar, the spanish fashion store Zara sells the newest trends of clothes at an affordable price, you can buy really nice clothes there, but its not meant to last more than say 5-10 machine washes, which sounds about right, I would say it is only meant to last for the season you are buying it, don't expect to use the same shirt you wore last spring this spring.

Audio is a tricky business, because its one of the few areas were "old" is considered "better" than new, so the rules are different, at least for the present time, I remember reading Mix Magazines from the 90s and many ads were like "replace your nasty analog console with this digital one", and so on, what I see with the newer generations, I mean 18 year olds and so, are not that interested in vintage equipment, they are all about ITB, so who knows what will happen in the future of audio. Also, the audio hi-fi community are mostly old farts, with some exceptions of course. The main audio market today is not about hi-fi, but portability and wireless, with a bit of fashion if I might add (beats by Dr. Dre is a good example), the vynil market is also rising, but I think its mostly a cult following and it will fade out at some point.

The only thing today that I believe somehow resembles the old concept of longevity and quality are matresses, you don't want to replace your bed every year, specially if you paid good money for the matress.

Everything else is disposable: cars, TVs, phones, computers, furniture, relationships, marriage hahaha
« Last Edit: March 25, 2021, 05:11:11 AM by Dualflip »

JohnRoberts

Re: Right to Repair
« Reply #24 on: March 25, 2021, 11:15:14 AM »
I just dealt with this recently.

I emailed a pro audio company(leaving the name out to avoid unwanted issues) with the only contact they have on their website for any sort of tech support. I was very specific asking for a connector in one of their units. That a client had broken the jack and I needed to replace it.  I got an e-mail back where it got kicked around from low level  support to upper level support.  When I finally got a written response other then the standard form email, I was met with do I have EE experience and that  we don't hand out schematics, we don't help in these cases, if you need something fixed send it to "insert repair shop here" and any damage incurred from my work would be on my and they are not liable.  I wrote back explain I wasn't asking for schematics, or help, I was hoping to order a jack so I can replace a broken one.  I went on to explain how I normally would have rigged a panel mount jack and wires to the PCB but due to layout and spacing I can only  put back the jack they use. I left them a small sample of work and places I worked. I repeated how  I just want to buy this jack here. can you please sell it to me.  They eventually said yes and told me the warehouse is closed but will stop in and get me what i need.  I won't even go into the costs, that shipping was easily 1000% markup on a dollar part.

I still do not need schematics.  I just need to replace a cracked plastic jack, but the amount of work it took just to get a price and part number so I can order said part was absurd.  lets see if I have that info this week.
Depending on where the SKU was manufactured and when, the availability of replacement parts can be difficult.

In my experience the vast majority of customer service requests are not very professional so the standard response will be aimed down at that audience, not you. Sometimes when the customer service folks were feeling ornery they would forward irate customer calls directly to me in engineering.

===

on topic I saw a recent article in the WSJ** about a repair issue with big dog farming tractors, these days those tractors have more computers inside than a tesla. Apparently dealers are being stingy with repair access, probably to generate another revenue stream.

JR

*** I didn't actually read the article but doubt they were writing about how good the situation is for farmers who are inclined to make their own repairs when possible.
Cancel the "cancel culture", do not participate in mob hatred.

Whoops

Re: Right to Repair
« Reply #25 on: March 25, 2021, 01:33:06 PM »
Mackie sued Behringer countless times for shamelessly copying their products, however Mackie now has all of their schematics available at their webpage.

We should not confused subjects, Mackie sued Behringer not because of the electronic circuit or schematics.
It was related to the looks only, specifically the Knobs.

Re: Right to Repair
« Reply #26 on: March 25, 2021, 01:34:29 PM »
We should not confused subjects, Mackie sued Behringer not because of the electronic circuit or schematics.
It was related to the looks only, specifically the Knobs.

Last time I remember they sued Behringer because they carbon copied one of their consoles, specifically the EQ. In any case, Behringer has always been in a lot of controversy for making very "similar", for lack of a better word, products that their competitors suddenly release.

Whoops

Re: Right to Repair
« Reply #27 on: March 25, 2021, 01:45:16 PM »
I guess that the big problem is the massive amount of corporate theft there is now, just look at Samsung and Apple

I was in Kyoto Japan 2 years ago,
my iPhone 5 didn't turn on.

I went to Kyoto's Apple store to get it fixed.
I was told by Apple that the phone was not possible to fix, and that all my data (inside the phone) was already lost.
They gave 2 solutions, buying a new phone on the spot for 700€ and subscribing for more iCloud storage so I would never loose all my information in the future.
So basically no help, no repair service, just sales.

I didn't believe the Phone was not fixable and I didn't believe any data was gone.

In the same street around the corner I found an independent phone repair shop.
Left the phone there. After 30 minutes they called me and it was fixed. I paid 35€.
The problem was a screw that got loose inside the phone, so it was shorting and not letting the phone turn on. All data and phone was intact.

I use Apple products, I like the software and the simplicity but Apple are plain thiefs and are one of the biggest users of Planned Obsolescence in the tech industry.

Macbook computers that have an underrated Tantalum cap that fails after 2 years.
iMac computers that have the graphics card burn when you update the OS (something they force on you every year)
Macbook computers that have a keyboard that fails consistently after 2 years
Perfectly usable and capable phone, that gets horribly slow and drains all the battery after you update the iOS

Apple doesn't supply schematics, Apple doesn't supply spare parts and try to crush as much as they can independent repair shops

Whoops

Re: Right to Repair
« Reply #28 on: March 25, 2021, 01:46:55 PM »
Last time I remember they sued Behringer because they carbon copied one of their consoles, specifically the EQ. In any case, Behringer has always been in a lot of controversy for making very "similar", for lack of a better word, products that their competitors suddenly release.

maybe there's more stuff that I'm not aware, but as far as I know, Mackie only won the knobs case.
I think the design and color Behringer used was exactly the same as Mackie.

JohnRoberts

Re: Right to Repair
« Reply #29 on: March 25, 2021, 02:21:30 PM »
maybe there's more stuff that I'm not aware, but as far as I know, Mackie only won the knobs case.
I think the design and color Behringer used was exactly the same as Mackie.
We should not confused subjects, Mackie sued Behringer not because of the electronic circuit or schematics.
It was related to the looks only, specifically the Knobs.

Behringer has been sued a number of times for a number of different reasons (too many to list here), including at least once by Peavey for patent infringement when Behringer knocked off my FLS patent (Peavey did not win that case either, Behringer had better lawyers). 

The high profile Mackie 8 bus knock off was technically a "trade dress" copyright case (look and feel), more commonly applied to small skus like hand held test equipment. IIRC Behringer's response was to alter (remove) the meter bridge from their version to change console shape enough to make the trade dress lawsuit moot.

I recall seeing the behringer 8bus when it was introduced at its first Frankfurt Messe and recall some speculation that the unit on the stand that day was actually a Mackie console with the Mackie logo taped over. 

A few years later at a different trade show Greg Mackie shared with me privately that Behringer even copied his mistakes too.  :o

JR
Cancel the "cancel culture", do not participate in mob hatred.


Re: Right to Repair
« Reply #30 on: March 25, 2021, 02:36:58 PM »
I was in Kyoto Japan 2 years ago,
my iPhone 5 didn't turn on.

I went to Kyoto's Apple store to get it fixed.
I was told by Apple that the phone was not possible to fix, and that all my data (inside the phone) was already lost.
They gave 2 solutions, buying a new phone on the spot for 700€ and subscribing for more iCloud storage so I would never loose all my information in the future.
So basically no help, no repair service, just sales.

I didn't believe the Phone was not fixable and I didn't believe any data was gone.

In the same street around the corner I found an independent phone repair shop.
Left the phone there. After 30 minutes they called me and it was fixed. I paid 35€.
The problem was a screw that got loose inside the phone, so it was shorting and not letting the phone turn on. All data and phone was intact.

I use Apple products, I like the software and the simplicity but Apple are plain thiefs and are one of the biggest users of Planned Obsolescence in the tech industry.

Macbook computers that have an underrated Tantalum cap that fails after 2 years.
iMac computers that have the graphics card burn when you update the OS (something they force on you every year)
Macbook computers that have a keyboard that fails consistently after 2 years
Perfectly usable and capable phone, that gets horribly slow and drains all the battery after you update the iOS

Apple doesn't supply schematics, Apple doesn't supply spare parts and try to crush as much as they can independent repair shops

Have you ever seen on YouTube Louis Rossman's channel? he is a (quite arrogant) but very skilled independent Apple products repair guy, and he is constantly bashing on Apple, both the products and their policies, and all the crap he has to endure. He has to get schematics from Chinese suppliers who reverse engineer (or maybe steal?) from Apple.

I've always believed that Apple invest everything on looks rather than what's inside, Apple is the definition of "fashion electronics" which is why it appeals to many people, Mac OS is also great, but its no better than Linux I think. I've never bought an Apple product, to me is just not worth paying tons of money for a titanium enclosure if inside there is crap, you can't update it, many of the stuff overheats becuase many times they sacrifice looks for efficiency, they have ridiculous ideas like getting rid of USB ports on laptops and then selling you a separate USB hub, and in the end you will have to eventually trash it, you basically can't do anything to a MAC product, maybe add more RAM, thats it. Specifically talking about Laptops, you can get a much much more powerful Laptop PC for the same price of the most basic Mac laptop.

Anyway, I don't want this to become a Mac VS PC thread.
« Last Edit: March 25, 2021, 02:47:22 PM by Dualflip »

pucho812

Re: Right to Repair
« Reply #31 on: March 25, 2021, 04:36:00 PM »
Behringer has been sued a number of times for a number of different reasons (too many to list here), including at least once by Peavey for patent infringement when Behringer knocked off my FLS patent (Peavey did not win that case either, Behringer had better lawyers). 

The high profile Mackie 8 bus knock off was technically a "trade dress" copyright case (look and feel), more commonly applied to small skus like hand held test equipment. IIRC Behringer's response was to alter (remove) the meter bridge from their version to change console shape enough to make the trade dress lawsuit moot.

I recall seeing the behringer 8bus when it was introduced at its first Frankfurt Messe and recall some speculation that the unit on the stand that day was actually a Mackie console with the Mackie logo taped over. 

A few years later at a different trade show Greg Mackie shared with me privately that Behringer even copied his mistakes too.  :o

JR

well there were the boards in the ULI units that said mackie on the silk screen.  ;D
You tell me whar a man gits his corn pone, en I'll tell you what his 'pinions is.

JohnRoberts

Re: Right to Repair
« Reply #32 on: March 25, 2021, 04:48:08 PM »
well there were the boards in the ULI units that said mackie on the silk screen.  ;D
I didn't see that with my own eyes, but recall hearing about another case of cut and paste back in the early days of using  switching PS inside otherwise linear audio power amps, that a QSC switching power board was spied inside a prototype Behringer power amp... Probably should have left the lid screwed down on that one if you literally dropped a competitor's PCB inside your demo unit.

This also occurred at Frankfurt, where they had separate halls for power amps apart from mixers, speakers, and such. 

JR
Cancel the "cancel culture", do not participate in mob hatred.

Re: Right to Repair
« Reply #33 on: March 25, 2021, 05:49:45 PM »
Yes, that's what I meant, I've heard horror stories about Behringer. To be fair, they have more original products, perhaps because they bought brands like MIDAS, Klark Teknik, TC Electronic, their synths are quite good, and their mixers are no longer a Mackie knock-off.

And this is a critique I found https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p5RSIWbZ6Vc

And this is the following video with the involvement of Behringer after the first video was posted
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SZEFSaRZlbQ

Be careful what you post here boys, Behringer might sue you!
« Last Edit: March 25, 2021, 06:19:38 PM by Dualflip »

3nity

Re: Right to Repair
« Reply #34 on: March 25, 2021, 09:07:11 PM »
I work for my brother in the transportation industry..I fix his trucks..he has a mix of old reliable trucks and new ones, that I call reliable just because their not very old.

But when they break it's built in a way only the dealer could fix them..but I have no choice that to stay on top of this technology..simple free recalls by the manufacturer can represent a 3k bill..you know how dealers are.

So when I call the dealer for parts sometimes they ask how I came to the conclusion that x part needs changing..in other words saying bring the truck to us.

Dealers are now introducing proprietary softwares in their trucks..you need an account to be able to do.updates or reprogram an ecu..when back.in the day it was pretty much anyone could do it with a basic engine software.

I miss the old days.
Life is a path, death the destination.

JohnRoberts

Re: Right to Repair
« Reply #35 on: March 25, 2021, 09:51:06 PM »


Be careful what you post here boys, Behringer might sue you!
Can't sue you if you are speaking the truth... Well they can sue you but they won't win.

Back over a decade ago, Uli went on a charm offensive to clean up his reputation. I got attacked mercilessly for speaking truth mainly about my personal experience (on a different mainly pro sound reinforcement forum). I wasn't attacked by Uli personally but by his surrogates, if anything Uli was gracious. He invited me to meet with him at a trade show. I declined, since I stopped attending trade shows over 20 years ago.

I found out after the fact that one of the attack dogs verbally wrestling with me was a lawyer. He or she was pretty good, but so was I.

In fact the "watch out they may sue you", sounds like empty threats to scare people from saying bad stuff... But based on what I heard here today a lot of the accusations floating around are inaccurate, so maybe they should be careful.

I guess that comes from being passed along like gossip from person to person over years, decades... You won't find these stories documented on the Behringer website history section. 

JR
Cancel the "cancel culture", do not participate in mob hatred.

Whoops

Re: Right to Repair
« Reply #36 on: March 25, 2021, 10:25:02 PM »
I've always believed that Apple invest everything on looks rather than what's inside, Apple is the definition of "fashion electronics" which is why it appeals to many people, Mac OS is also great, but its no better than Linux I think. I've never bought an Apple product, to me is just not worth paying tons of money for a titanium enclosure if inside there is crap, you can't update it, many of the stuff overheats becuase many times they sacrifice looks for efficiency, they have ridiculous ideas like getting rid of USB ports on laptops and then selling you a separate USB hub, and in the end you will have to eventually trash it, you basically can't do anything to a MAC product, maybe add more RAM, thats it. Specifically talking about Laptops, you can get a much much more powerful Laptop PC for the same price of the most basic Mac laptop.

Anyway, I don't want this to become a Mac VS PC thread.

I disagree with a lot of what you said,
the Macbook Pro 2012 is the best laptop ever made by any company.

It's a beast runs forever, easily serviceable and you can swap any component you wish.
Mine is going strong after 9 years, I don't know any PC laptop that I could have bought in 2012 that I could say the same.

Apple is not "fashion electronics", they just made great products, products that were better than the competitors, they innovated a lot also.
Their products just worked better and more efficiently than the other options in the market, thats why people like to use their products. Of course if you never used a MAC or an Iphone you will not know of what I'm talking about.

Saying this the quality has been going down and a lot as to do with Planned Obsolescence.

But my story on the Kyoto Apple store was just an example, I couldn't care less about the MAC vs PC debate, any company in the tech industry has Planned Obsolescence built into any of their products, it's not only Apple it's the whole industry.

Thats something that the Right to Repair movement is fighting also.

JohnRoberts

Re: Right to Repair
« Reply #37 on: March 25, 2021, 11:57:30 PM »
I have a slightly different take on Apple... (as I type this on a mac mini).

They are masterful at execution while borrowing liberally from other's technology

even the mouse was from a sparc research project, the original IPOD technology was invented by creative labs... Apple ended up buying them because it was cheaper than paying them royalties.

I didn't come to bury apple I came to praise them... Apple is now talking about selling an electric car... I would never underestimate their ability to one up even tesla...

JR 
Cancel the "cancel culture", do not participate in mob hatred.

Re: Right to Repair
« Reply #38 on: March 26, 2021, 12:07:41 AM »
Can't sue you if you are speaking the truth... Well they can sue you but they won't win.

Back over a decade ago, Uli went on a charm offensive to clean up his reputation. I got attacked mercilessly for speaking truth mainly about my personal experience (on a different mainly pro sound reinforcement forum). I wasn't attacked by Uli personally but by his surrogates, if anything Uli was gracious. He invited me to meet with him at a trade show. I declined, since I stopped attending trade shows over 20 years ago.

I found out after the fact that one of the attack dogs verbally wrestling with me was a lawyer. He or she was pretty good, but so was I.

In fact the "watch out they may sue you", sounds like empty threats to scare people from saying bad stuff... But based on what I heard here today a lot of the accusations floating around are inaccurate, so maybe they should be careful.

I guess that comes from being passed along like gossip from person to person over years, decades... You won't find these stories documented on the Behringer website history section. 

JR

From the video I posted, apparently Behringer sued some guy that posted something negative of Behringer on GearSlutz, they presented the thread transcription, and in the end the judge dismissed all charges, but it tells you about the attitude of this company, another bully is Monster cable, I remember they sued anyone, they tried (or succeeded) on patenting the name Monster, so anyone who's company was called Monster something, got sued.

JohnRoberts

Re: Right to Repair
« Reply #39 on: March 26, 2021, 12:28:06 AM »
From the video I posted, apparently Behringer sued some guy that posted something negative of Behringer on GearSlutz, they presented the thread transcription, and in the end the judge dismissed all charges, but it tells you about the attitude of this company, another bully is Monster cable, I remember they sued anyone, they tried (or succeeded) on patenting the name Monster, so anyone who's company was called Monster something, got sued.
I once hired a lawyer and authorized him to sue a businessman who owed me thousands of dollars and was giving me a run around... I asked the lawyer how much it would cost to sue and it was only something like $150 to file.. (this was decades ago). Once the businessman realized how serious I was, he suddenly found the money he owed me and we never even had to file a lawsuit. Then my lawyer asked me for more money and I reminded him I was paying him straight time. I did buy him a nice dinner to celebrate.

JR 
Cancel the "cancel culture", do not participate in mob hatred.


 

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