Dr. Sidney Darlington's transistor

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featherpillow

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I'm kind of fence-riding on the issue of using Darlington transistors in audio.

The benefit here would be the overall current gain that comes from a Darlington, provided that's necessary. This would make it a good candidate for driving a long cable, right?

But the drawback, if I understand it, is that the capacitive nature of the emitter to base junction causes some problems. Its inherent phase shift at high frequencies results in instability in an NFB situation. I would guess it to be a little on the slow side as well...

What brings this all up is the fact that I was looking at a simple three transistor gain stage that used a darlington--I'm guessing because of the need for current gain within its application. I'm trying to weigh the benefits and drawbacks of this transistor, and wonder whether any of you have any opinions?
 
Go to the passlabs site. I think the old class A a40 design is there IIRC the TAA article had a good section about the internal resistors in the first section of the pair.

A purchased Darlington is more an IC than a double transistor.

With the A40 I believe lamda devices were picked for lower internal emitter resistors for the first transistor (turn off time).

I have been meaning to buy some IGBTs to try in some circuits.

edit found it

http://www.passdiy.com/legacy.htm

Page 4 of the A40 pdf
 
The hamptone fet pre uses a darlington to provide the input fet with a lighter loading than with a normal transistor; one use of the extra current gain.

Bjorn
 
[quote author="featherpillow"] using Darlington transistors in audio.
[/quote]
Never noise-optimal
:)
xvlk
 
Does the 'never noise optimal' go for the ready made single device darlingtons only, or does this refer to the general darlington configuration of two hand-picked transistors as well, xvlk?

Bjorn
 
Darlingtons have the two voltage noise generators of each transistor in series, thus adding root-sum-of-squares. The complementary equivalent, the Sziklai pair, has only the one voltage noise generator and is superior for noise because of that.

This holds for integrated or discrete versions.
 
The hamptone fet pre uses a darlington to provide the input fet with a lighter loading than with a normal transistor; one use of the extra current gain.

Right--the Hamptone looks like (and I could be wrong) a FET with a Darlington/NPN Cascode as a buffer?

the Sziklai pair, has only the one voltage noise generator and is superior for noise because of that.

This is the bipolar version of the circuit discussed in the FET buffer thread, right? Does it have similar or better HF response/phase/NFB characteristics?
 
Yeah--take the Jensen app schematic and put an NPN bipolar in place of the FET and you have that polarity version of a Sziklai pair. You adjust the collector current of the input device by the base-emitter resistor of the PNP, that is, Ic input is about 0.7V/R.

You can get gain out of a similar circuit by putting some R in series with the PNP collector and taking the signal out of the collector. In essence these circuits are minimalist current-feedback amplifiers.

For unity or very low gains you may need a small compensation cap across base-collector of the PNP.
 
FETgainstage.JPG


Okay, so here's the Hamptone JFET gain stage. Q2 is the
darlington used in this circuit, and Q3 is a current source,
right? (I thought it was a Cascode at first, but I was wrong.)

One of the problems with darlingtons is transient
intermodulation distortion, and the current source
is supposed to eliminate that. But we still have a
problem with noise figure, right? So what if we
changed Q2 to a Sziklai pair? We have lower noise,
but our output impedance goes up. Which do you guys
think is the better option? Does it really matter, or is it
purely academics in this case?

Note: Redrew schem to include V+, ground, and value of R4
 
What's the desired gain etc. of this Hamtone thing?

I think it's a little over 30dB of gain per stage. The design couples two of these stages together.

Q1=a 2N5457 FET
Q2= MPSA14 Darlington
Q3= ZTX853
 
> One of the problems with darlingtons is transient intermodulation distortion

I don't see how that statement can be generally valid.

> we still have a problem with noise figure, right?

Where? The darlington emitter follower comes after a moderately high gain stage, that is moreover much noisier than the worst (modern) BJT. FET noise is (say) 1uV over the audio band, stage gain is like 30, so it outputs 30uV. Qa noise is maybe 1uV, Qb noise is more like 0.5uV. So using thumb-math, output noise is 30+1+0.5 or 31.5uV, only 1.5uV from the BJTs. As bcarso says, you are supposed to do a thing with rooted squares instead of simple addition; the long answer is still a bit over 30uV and almost all from the FET.

> So what if we changed Q2 to a Sziklai pair?

Scott spent a lot of time trying variations and listening to the sound. We can argue theory until the Corgis come home. But if we want sound, a well listened-to project beats all theory. Or at the least, you should try it Scott's way before wandering into your own variations and listening fugue.

> our output impedance goes up.

Does it? Given a relatively low-Z source (the drain resistor seems low enough), 30mA current, a straight Darlington with intermediate resistor comes out around 1Ω. The Sziklai depends on first stage current and second stage current gain; taking 1mA for the first and 30 for the second number, we again come to around 1Ω.

> Does it really matter, or is it purely academics in this case?

Hardly worth academics.

> the overall current gain that comes from a Darlington, provided that's necessary. This would make it a good candidate for driving a long cable, right?

No. In a reasonably synergistic design, current gain is just the number of transistors. The Darlington tries to fool you, being two transistors that look like one. Darlingtons ARE very popular in audio. But they have problems too. Maybe the biggest problem: it is "too simple". It seems like one transistor but in many ways it MUST be understood as two. A single transistor's current gain drops 6dB/octave. A Darlington ends up with 12dB/oct over a large range. This does strange things, like turning capacitive loads into inductive inputs (I think).

Get exact specs on your input and output. Say 1V into 10K in, 10V into 10Ω output. Input current is 0.1mA, output current is 1A, we need current gain of 10,000. This certainly needs more than one BJT. Two selected BJTs would do it, except leakage stability usually suggests working current gain much less than device current gain. At working current gain of 30 per BJT, we need 3 devices. These days we will probably run overall feedback. The feedback loop can't hog load current, and the feedback input (not defined by external box-level specs) may be lower impedance than the external input. So we may need more gain and more devices to close the NFB loop well. We see that loudspeaker amps rarely have less than 4 stages of current gain, and often more.

How much current do you think a cable sucks? 100 feet of cable is around 3,000pFd, which is around 300Ω at the top of the audio band. (Now you see why audio line impedances are generally 100-600Ω: even "unloaded" they run about that much in the treble.) If you can drive 300Ω, you can probably fiddle it to drive 100 feet of cable. You have the power. You may have stability issues but more power may not be the way to fix that (though it can be).

If you go to very long cables: 10,000 feet of fat wire costs a fortune. So we buy skinny wire. Now the resistance of the wire may be hundreds of ohms. The last third of the wire may be 100,000pFd or just a few ohms at the top of the audio band, but we see it through hundreds of ohms of plain copper. Also any conductor has inductcance, which leads to a nice sophmore-year EE course in general fields and lines. But skipping ahead to the real world of audio: a very long line has a Characteristic Impedance, for almost any kind of cable-pair it is 100Ω, and if we put 100Ω on both ends then we don't see any capacitance at all, just resistance. Or in the modern world, we just source lines with a 60Ω resistor, load them with much-higher-than 100Ω assure that a shorted line will not burn-up the amp, and everything is good.

featherpillow, do you have an image-cropping tool? Maybe I just hate to see a small schematic on a big sheet because I remember beating reeds into papyrus for my blueprints....
 
OK fp. Thanks for the data.

Is that Q3 base only connected to the single resistor? If so it may work for some particular parts, but there is a large dependence on transistor beta as far as determining the current at the collector. Maybe that curious Zetex part is tightly specified hence less of an issue. I'd like to see at least another resistor from base to ground. Better yet a couple of series diodes or an LED. True, there is a little local feedback from the emitter R to keep things from getting totally crazy. But as drawn the collector current is not well-determined in general. Also by the way: what is the d.c. potential at the FET gate? Zero I guess?

The remark made about TIM and the darlington (maybe better described as a dynamic asymmetry) has merit in some situations (not in all---agree with PRR), although less of a problem at audio frequencies. If the first internal transistor's emitter were accessible, a resistor could be added to the external emitter lead to provide a discharge path for the second transistor's base (some power darlingtons have built-in R's). But it's probably not a huge deal. And as PRR points out this thing has been built and listened to, no small consideration.

Agree also that the noise is dominated by the FET here---of course the thread was asking the general question.

If you PM me with a email, time permitting I can send you a pdf of what I would suggest for the circuit solution, which you can post if you like. If you have those specific parts in the schematic well and good, if not let me know what you have or can easily get.
 
Scott spent a lot of time trying variations and listening to the sound. We can argue theory until the Corgis come home. But if we want sound, a well listened-to project beats all theory. Or at the least, you should try it Scott's way before wandering into your own variations and listening fugue.

With all due respect, I think you're being a little harsh on me. My interest lies more in understanding the circuit's operation and other people's approaches to solving the problem than trying to improve what's already there. There seems to be a debate about the use of darlington transistors for audio work, and I'm curious to see what that debate is. Obviously Scott spent a lot of time testing and listening to this circuit, that's a given. But it doesn't mean that I shouldn't ask questions or theorize about other possible solutions.

In any case, thank you for your response. My comment about TIM was based on information I had read from Pass Labs and a couple of other sources.

Also, just so you know, I did use an editor for the schematic I posted--I intentionally sized it large so that one could click on the image and see it full-sized.

I've sent you a PM, bcarso.
 
[quote author="Bjorn Zetterlund"]Does the 'never noise optimal' go for the ready made single device darlingtons only, or does this refer to the general darlington configuration of two hand-picked transistors as well, xvlk?
Bjorn[/quote]
In general only with the some types.
There can be noise optimal darlington with second transistor
with quiescent current by beta of first transistor higher than
of first. This is practically nowhere.
xvlk
 
from bcarso:
Yeah--take the Jensen app schematic and put an NPN bipolar in place of the FET and you have that polarity version of a Sziklai pair. You adjust the collector current of the input device by the base-emitter resistor of the PNP, that is, Ic input is about 0.7V/R.

You can get gain out of a similar circuit by putting some R in series with the PNP collector and taking the signal out of the collector. In essence these circuits are minimalist current-feedback amplifiers.
FWIW: for this, have a look at the circuit in http://www.groupdiy.com/index.php?topic=7793 which happened to show up on the same day bcarso wrote the above.

FWIW#2: You can also get gain from thie CFP-arrangement by inserting a resistor underneath the PNP, as shown here:
cfp4.gif

(from http://www.dself.dsl.pipex.com/ampins/discrete/twoq.htm ).
Wouldn't know right away which one's the most interesting of the two.

Regards,

Peter

// edit: please read on, correction below //
 
'FWIW#2: You can also get gain from thie CFP-arrangement by inserting a resistor underneath the PNP, as shown here:"

Yeah, that's exactly the configuration I meant.

Sometimes it makes sense, particularly if the input device is a FET, to have a separate R to supply the source (emitter) so the input device current doesn't have to flow in the feedback network. That R has to be accounted for as being in parallel with the feedback divider for gain of course.

It's amazing how many benefits small variants of that basic pair with a few more Q's can yield. I'm working on a design prompted by the beginning of this thread and getting some pretty interesting performance numbers in simulation at least.
 
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