Tillmann

Telefunken V672
« Reply #20 on: June 17, 2005, 02:03:28 PM »
Quote from: "soundguy"
Quote from: "Rob Flinn"
I agree with what people say about the V676a generally, when they say it`s no Neve, API etc, but does it need to be ?


there is something about the solid state german stuff which to me is always very fussy to use.  I guess it just comes down to poor headroom which doesnt make them as easy to use care free as some otther stuff, when those amps distort, there's nothing pleasant about it.

dave


I'm curious to know, all of you that used these german transistor units, did you use units that were properly serviced?  Especially the people that found them to be seriously dark?  Most of these units absolutely have to be recapped and serviced to sound right.


soundguy

Telefunken V672
« Reply #21 on: June 17, 2005, 03:21:53 PM »
Quote from: "Tillmann"
did you use units that were properly serviced?


of course.

dave

chips are good with dip...

Tillmann

Telefunken V672
« Reply #22 on: June 17, 2005, 04:04:20 PM »
Quote from: "CJ"
Hell no.  What, make a post with valid information? What kind of a forum do you think this is? :?

Serously though, your right. I am just going on what other people, like Ollie, have told me. I figure build a 76 and 72 first, then what use will  the transistor stuff be? I mean, if a car company built both a Mercedes and a Volkswagon Beatle, why buy the Beatle, unless your a masochist? (Sorry Keef!) Souping up a Sparrow Hawk does not make an Eagle.
Most of the white coats were gone from Telefunken by the time the transistor stuff came out. And transistors were pretty low quality when they first came out. So why not build the Tele tube stuff and build the Langevin/API/ETC stuff that has a proven track record? Then, if you happen to find some Tele transistor stuff on evilbay for cheap, go for it. But good luck finding parts.

From Ollie:

:Without the proper interfacing units or buffers, there is not to much what you can use, mic pres were either V72,76,77 and 78, forget about the a/b/t stuff they are just buffers and may or may not sound good as mic pres...
The transistor area units were based on the tube modules so designations are the same V276 (376, 476 and 676) are designated mic pres, and the V272,372,672 are mic pres but need in most cases modifications to sound good.
Everything else ANT, Lawo, etc. is not worth the price because they do not sound the same than the tube and real transistor units.

I do not think API, Neve etc. compare to the german transistor modules, entirely different battle class....

To rack or not to, is quite a difficult question, first I would put the money were it is badly needed, rebuild the units first, make sure it is done by a professional and done to specs, before you get into the cosmetic part.
Racking, very nice to have but most racks are quite questionable for the price they are offered. If you buy plug and play racked units, make sure it was done right...

To answer your question in short, there is no shortcut into good sound, if you want to V76, save the money and buy one, if you do not want to spent get something that is cheap, there are several hundred mic pres out there you can get for under $100...

If you have lots of time check out the Surplus offering of german radio stations.
Here is one link:
http://www.wdr.de/unternehmen/t-boerse/index.jhtml
There are about 20 government owned in germany so lot of potential to get some cool stuff...

Best regards,"

Sorry CJ, I think that most of your comment is false. I have to speak my piece for the transistor based German units because I've actually used them a lot. And any comparison of the Telefunken, Neumann, and Siemens transistor modules to current mic pre's under $100 is LUDICRIS. Comparing it to current pre's under $500/channel is very questionable as well. I think you've also taken Mr. Archut's comments out of line. Whilst the transistor units do not sound like the V72, V76, V78 units, who would ever dream that transistor gear would sound like valve gear? I would like to hear some names and models of transistor gear that sound like valve gear. It's comparing apples and oranges- they both have a different flavour and perform quite differently. I think what is important about what Mr. Archut wrote is that the units need to be properly serviced before they are put into use. This makes a HUGE difference in performance.

I will also disagree with his assessments on the ANT and Filtek gear in saying that they are not "worth the price" (what price? no price has been mentioned). Whilst they indeed do not sound as "vintage" as the valve or transistor gear, they do sound quite good. They're much more of a cleaner sound rather then something with a lot of colour like a V276 or a V72. Again a totally different animal, but worthy in it's own right. Quiet, clean, full, with a spot of warmth to it. Whilst I wouldn't pay several grand for a rack, I would definitely consider paying in the $1000/£600 range for a properly done rack if I did not have the time to make my own.

Also, I live in Germany six months out of the year, and the times of getting all kinds of wonderful old gear cheaply in radio stations is LONG gone. I've read quotes from experts stating that radio stations throw away V672D's by the dust-bin full and if a person just goes to radio station and asks for old gear it can easily be had, and that is simply a time past long ago. I know, because I've tried, and I've also emailed almost every radio station in Germany (in German) inquiring about this as well. Once in a great while a tape machine or something of the sort will come up, but this stuff is getting harder and harder to find, all the whilst becoming more and more expensive, and there's a reason for that- it's GOOD GEAR that for certain applications, I'll choose over a Neve or API piece! Wait ten years and see how it's thought of then.

synthi

Telefunken V672
« Reply #23 on: June 17, 2005, 04:30:18 PM »
Amen.

CJ

Telefunken V672
« Reply #24 on: June 17, 2005, 06:39:21 PM »
OK, now I have to find one to compare with other pre's. But I see nothing on evilbay.

Darn it! Just when I thought I was catching up on projects, I have to try and find one of these darn transistor amps. Thanks guys.  :twisted:

Here are some more favorable views, even from Ollie:

http://recforums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/t/5245/0

I do see that someone mentioned opamps on the D version, so I gues they come in more than one flavor.

Which ones are the best?
If I can't fix it, I can fix it so nobody else can!
Frank's Tube Page: www.mif.pg.gda.pl/homepages/frank/vs.html
Guitar Amps: http://bmamps.com/Tech_sch.html

soundguy

Telefunken V672
« Reply #25 on: June 17, 2005, 09:10:21 PM »
Quote from: "CJ"
Which ones are the best?


I had tons of the stuff, the only ones I kept were the siemenns 276, neumann PV76 and neumann 476.  The 476 is the most modern sounding of the three and the smoothest, the 276 is the grainiest and the PV76 is somewhat the darkest.  All three suck for headroom.  All three sound cool for what they are.  If you DIY on, omit the hipass filter completely if you can.  It would be interesting to hear the PV76 circuit with different transformers.  Its a very stone age sounding amp kinda like the rca ba31, it sounds real basic which is why they are both so cool.  The 476 sounds much more refined and developed and thought about and "fixed".  

whatever these things are worth in the future doesnt reflect on the sound they make.  People currently pay tons of money for stuff that is just silly.  If this stuff was really all that, it would be expensive today as engineers would be after it if it was truly awesome.  The only reason the price is ever gonna go up on this stuff is because its "whats left" that people can afford.  Something like a 276 for $400 is an ok value though, it woudl cost way more to make, they are made really well and you can run power and audio pigtails and dont need to bother with complicated racking if you dont want to, the gain switching is integrated, so they are very convenient in that respect.  There was a point where my whole studio was german transistor and it was a very frustrating time for me, this stuff is not as cool as everyone wants it to be.  Its cool, it sounds good, its made well, but Id look at all this stuff as something extraneous to have for a fun color not something to depend on as your backline for a tracking date.

does the 476 use a discrete opamp?  It sorta has the feel of an opamp type amplifier.

dave

chips are good with dip...

CJ

Telefunken V672
« Reply #26 on: June 17, 2005, 09:51:02 PM »
OK, I'm back on schedule. Thanks Dave!
When you own something, it's natural to defend it.
So for now on, nothing sucks. Everything rocks. Until I actually hear it.
 
Now I can get back to the dual Western Electric 807a/6DJ8  frame grid one tube mic pre.

Those transistors for the V672 have to be hard to find. But I sure would like to see a schematic without bugging Ollie for the million'th time.
Any help?

Thanks.
If I can't fix it, I can fix it so nobody else can!
Frank's Tube Page: www.mif.pg.gda.pl/homepages/frank/vs.html
Guitar Amps: http://bmamps.com/Tech_sch.html

[silent:arts]

Telefunken V672
« Reply #27 on: June 18, 2005, 01:39:47 PM »
CJ, if you are really interested interested in this german transistor stuff, pm me your adress.

andre tchmil

Telefunken V672
« Reply #28 on: June 18, 2005, 03:31:44 PM »
If the V676 and V672 were that bad, I bet Marquette audio labs or Vintage king audio, etc  wouldn't sell them as racked pairs :grin:

Tillmann

Telefunken V672
« Reply #29 on: June 19, 2005, 09:32:59 AM »
Quote from: "soundguy"
Quote from: "CJ"
Which ones are the best?


If this stuff was really all that, it would be expensive today as engineers would be after it if it was truly awesome.  

dave


I don't personally buy into that mentality.  A lot of the reasons for the success of vintage gear has to do with things involving marketing and business decisions that have gone down in the last 30 years.  Believe me, companies making some good inovations and having an equally good sales department really helped influence the legacy of a lot of companies.  For example, Neve was the first to get the lock on the BBC and a lot of console making in Great Britain.  They sold A LOT of gear and consoles.  A lot of classic records were made in Britain and the States on their gear, and they got the endorsement of the biggest record producer in the history of modern music in George Martin.  Their legacy lives on by shear brute force if you will.  They had the numbers and also great luck.  API for example had a somewhat similar situation in the States.  I think that if a company such as Calrec had been the first to corner the market, their name may be the one by which quality now seems to be measured.

All that said, I appreciate hearing your point of view and I think a lot of what you said is very valid. :thumb: What kind of music to you tend to do?  What kind of music were you doing when it was a frustrating time for you having mainly German transistor gear?  I will admit that the German transistor gear does not do everything.  A broader pallette is definately desireable.  

Cheers!

Tillmann


soundguy

Telefunken V672
« Reply #30 on: June 19, 2005, 02:19:22 PM »
hi tilmann-

the neve vs. calrec comparsion is defintely a great point no doubt.  There's other stuff though that people just start buying up because its all thats left and some of it is just terrible. I dont know what comes to mind as a good example, the solid state fairchild modules I suppose are a decent point.

I was using all my stuff for rock and roll, that gear was not designed to make rock records.  Good for background vocals occasionally these days, occasionally vocals, the odd track, but to do a whole record with drums and guitars with that stuff was a mess.  

dave

chips are good with dip...


 

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