Neve VR Legend EQ&Dyn circuit - help needed

I've got a service manual with all circuits of Neve VR Legend console. But it's too difficult for me to adapt the EQ and Dynamic section for standalone mode - there's too much stuff incl. recall and internal commutation around that... But my God this gear sounds great! :shock:
If anybody is interested in DIYing this stuff and is ready to help me with adapting this schematics please let me know. :roll:

Ask the pope about it. :green:

Recall doesn't appear on the schematics. The don't show anything other than the passive pot gang and multi-switch resistor ladders -no need to.

The circuit's really easy: a simple state-variable filter with the only modification being for hi shelf and low shelf.

Problems: the pots that they used are awful. -With a VR, try this simple test. With all the faders at unity, all channels assigned to the stereo buss and all of the EQs switched in, gently rub your hand across the console EQ section from left-to-right. -You hear that noise? that's the pots you need to replace. The replacements will also do it within a year, unless you were lucky enough to get a "slash-A" version of the console, which all went to Japan as far as I know...

The same topology is used rather better in the Calrec EQ on Jakob's site. Having used both (and having been responsible for servicing several VRs) I'd prefer the Calrec. Sabe EQ, better implemented and already done.

Keith

I'm thinking of building Calrec EQ... But need to finish SSL clone first :grin:

If you're interested in the VR Eq and Mic Pre/Limiter, why don't you chase up the V-Rack (sometimes called Prism Rack) manual. It has schematics, and they are stand alone versions of those sections of the console.

FYI: the Eq and Mic Pre/Lim sections of the V/V2/V3/VR/VRL/VRP/VX versions of the console are identical. So the V-Rack drawings wil be the same as any of those.

Two things to bear in mind though, there is an LED Signal Threshold module in the V-Rack that HAS to be there for the modules to work, so that will need to be incoporated into any design. Secondly, there are mods for the mic pre circuit that make it really (really) good, so you will probably want to track those down also.

Jeff

[quote author="Jeff Goodman"]FYI: the Eq and Mic Pre/Lim sections of the V/V2/V3/VR/VRL/VRP/VX versions of the console are identical. So the V-Rack drawings wil be the same as any of those.[/quote]
Not so, I'm afraid.

The V and V2 were non-parametric, They only had sweep sections and no bandwidth control, amongst other differences. They were essentially much the same EQ as on the much-maligned 8124/8232 series boards. Only with the V3 did the fully-parametric EQ evolve. The VR was the V3 with Recall, the 'L' ("Legend") was the same with oxygen-free cabling and perforated rear panels, the VRP was the post-production version with more panning options, the VX was a further minor evolution with mainly the paint colour changed on the channel strips. (the center section however, did evolve a lot on the VX...)

We were offered the very first V series console ever built (it went into the old Strawberry 2 studios in Manchester, instead...) -we turned it down because there was no fully parametric EQ and bought an SSL instead. Our bookings went through the roof, Strawberry 2 bought the Neve and went broke. Neve came a-calling again when they built the V2, again we told them to go and build one with a parametric EQ (and preferably recall!) and come back when they did. We bought a second SSL.

Eventually the V3 came out, we sold our second SSL and bought a V3. No more than a month or so after we confirmed our order, they announced the VR. We were annoyed that we hadn't been told that it was in development, but we kept to the deal.

-So I know from first-hand experience that they're not the same. :wink:

They made some changes to the mic pres, but they never did fix the idiotic 30dB pad. Usually kick drums were just a teensy-bit hot, so you invariably wanted to chip a bit of gain off, to keep the channel/EQ from overloading. As a result, using the ridiculous 30dB pad meant that you normally had to wind back on about 25dB more gain on the mic pre, and usually the hissiest thing in the session was the kick drum mic. I don't like having to gate drums just because the console manufacturer couldn't get their shit together, so we modded several channels on our V3 (and then our later VR purchase also) to have 10dB and 20dB options, by using a selection of different resistor values.

The mods for the mic pres that I'm aware of were incorporated by Neve in the VR and after the V3. They were aimed at making the mic pre slightly quiter (Here's a better idea... lose the stupid 30dB pad!!!) and didn;t significantly affect the tonality of the pres. The only other change I ever heard of, was the usual "pick-your-fave" boutique IC swap... (it's an OEP transformer followed by a 5534... there's not much you can do!)

Neve never dignified our comments and suggestions for modifying the utterly useless (unless you're close-micing a shuttle launch using high-output large diaphragm condensors! :twisted: ) pads.

Keith

Keith,

My bad regarding the V and V2.

But remember I'm only speaking of the EQ and Mic Pre sections, and I'm completely disregarding the Recall. After the eq was redesigned as parametric, the changes to these 2 sections are negligible. I don't believe the Mic Pre was ever redesigned. There were engineering BOM changes made, basically component change-outs to better and/or cheaper and/or parts on hand.

Robin Porter tried to make the console better through the years. A fight all the way. Better grounding, oxygen free cabling, blah blah blah. Capacitors, Oh God!!!!! He did make it better than the original Dave Pope version by yards, but still it was turd polishing. Robin did do an outstanding job on the 88R though. A really good console with all the bells and whistles, and everything the last VRP's and VX's should have been plus lots more.

The mods for the mic pre (that are wrongfully attributed to John Musgrave) (who is a great and really smart guy, btw) are Robin's and are largely IC change-out based. There are some diodes that get removed, and an AD797 replaces the 5534, and there were some OPA2134 put in to replace a 5532 or two. That's all I can remember right now, I have notes for the mod somewhere.

If you have a V-Rack, the mods are well worth doing. I have some and the modded mic pre's are great. But I would agree that to build some from scratch probably isn't worth the effort especially since the Calrec EQ that Jacob has so graciously bestowed upon us is as you say a better implementation of a similar design, and already layed out.

Jeff

The other upgrade to the Prism rack (if you can get the bits) is to replace the pots with Clarostats. The PCB is padded and laid out for both Sfernice (wide-spaced, large holes) and Clarostat (0.1" spaced, small leads) pots.

The Sfernice had lousy wiper pressure and also after a while the contact surface wore down, oxidised or aged in some other manner, to such an extent that the pots (in particular the frequency pots in the EQ section) need to be "exercised" to cure the filtered "rushing" sound (2.2k linear, 2-gang if I recall correctly) that invariably becomes an intermittent 'feature' of the design... :wink:

My colleague Mike worked for John Musgrave during the period when Musgrave Labs were the US contractor for the capacitor refit... ( :roll: ) and was in charge of QC and testing after each module was recapped, and the invasive disturbance had conjured some inevitable faults into existance. He told me about John's upgrades, which were mainly Burr-Brown related, but most importantly the Power distribution was star-fed instead of the lamentable Schroff-bar that was originally used.

The 88R is indeed a dramatic improvement, but then Robin moved from a hopped-up, over-priced John Pope mic pre/EQ design (which grew out of a mid-priced broadcast console and to be quite honest tried to grow way too big for it's boots!) to a console incorporating a gorgeously faithful recreation of a Rupert Neve masterpiece... that's quite some starting point! :green:

I re-capped and re-potted more channels more times than I ever want to think about... Lordy, that's a troublesome design! :razz:

Keith

Oh, the other thing that was irritating was when we got our VR... The Aux on/off switches...

On the V, V2 and V3, the Aux switches had been above or below the corresponding knob. This meant that the aux knobs numbered (counting away fron you):

1/2, 3/4, 5/6, 7/8.

The switches on the other hand, numbered:

2/1, 4/3, 6/5, 8/7.

On the VR they changed the numbering scheme (but left the switches in exactly the same place!!!) so that the on/off for each switch now numbered:
1/2, 3/4, 5/6, 7/8...

the number of times I got called into a control room becasue someone had switched from one of our V's to the other one, and now "I can't get any echo on the snare..." or whatever... :roll:

Hehehe... Job security I suppose!

Keith

Yes, I bet you have recapped just a few modules!!

I didn't realize you could change out the pots, I might have to do that.

btw: I think Pope's name is Dave, isn't it?

Jeff

I believe so... -Did I call him someone else? -My mistake if so!

Check the PCB traces, -every Prism rack I've seen has the two sets of pads, one for sfernice, one for Clarostat.

Keith

Can you guys tell me something...
Our desk is about 15 years old and it wan't modded, recapped or whatever else. If we replace caps nad pots would it make significant improvement on sound quality? If so, any comments/suggestions are welcome. It's a pity, but we've got no people here who has a good knoledge of what to do with such console (I mean service and reparements).

[quote author="Ilya"]Can you guys tell me something...
Our desk is about 15 years old and it wan't modded, recapped or whatever else.[/quote] :shock:

And it passes audio? The VRL where I work had had the channels recapped before we purchased it, but not the center section. One of the first things I wound up doing when I took over. There were complaints about the auxes not working. I came in, plugged in an oscillator, and lo and behold, nada, no signal. For kicks I swept through the range and at about 20k our friend the signal showed up. Oy. Well, at least it was obvious. When I had been told it had been recapped, I assumed they meant all of it. Silly me.
The downside to the channel recap was that whoever had done it, or possibly someone repairing earlier failures, didn't bother to clean the electrolytic goo off when caps blew, leading to some truly interesting problems once it finally ate through to the traces.
So, yeah, I'd think a recap might yield noticable results. If you have a lack of bottom on any channels individually, or the console in general, I'd say you're a good candidate. Another spot people can forget about is the metering. There's one cap in particular up there that can throw off the response quite a bit. A sweepable oscillator is a great tool for seeing if you've got cap troubles.

[quote author="aurt"]...<snip>...didn't bother to clean the electrolytic goo off when caps blew...[/quote]
Oh, when that stuff gets near the CMOS logic on the small fader module... all sorts of funny stuff starts happening!

Keith

I see you've chased this particular ball of yarn yourself, eh? I was banging my head against a wall all that day until I remembered somebody describing this to me years before. Finding the right cap was fun too, nowhere near the chips with the problems.

Best way to clean it all off is with one of those 'acid brushes' with the semi-stiff bristles, then some flux remover, followed by isopropanol, and 'blow-dried' with canned air afterwards...

(shudder!) -I really loathe those things! -Specially the "paper ribbons" talk about bad for servicing!

Keith

Have a look here maybe it could help


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If I'd spent seven years to find a solution, I would have killed myself...