diy mixer question

hi guys, this is my first post, and i have to start off by saying i?m a decent audio engineer, but i?m definitely not an electrical engineer?yet! i want to make a mixer of about 40 channels, no pres, probably no eq, but with pan mute solo and a pretty comprehensive master section. i know a damn good electrical engineer/designer, and he claims with the right parts and design we could make something that would ?wipe the floor with a neve/api/ssl? of course i?m highly sceptical that for what he estimates to be $20,000 we can even start to compare with desks costing 10 times that?so i thought you guys would be a great group to ask?is this guy telling the truth? how good can a (very well done) homebrew mixer be?

thanks!

how good can a (very well done) homebrew mixer be?

Click to expand...

..About as good as your experience in building this sort of stuff.

Theoretical knowledge is important as well, naturally, but in large audio designs you'll probably need something like decades of hands-on experience to come up with stuff comparable to the mentioned brands. After all, they've been around for some time..

So yes, it's entirely possible - just don't expect to be able to convert theory into practice in any easy way..

Jakob E.

Amen to what gyraf said. You have a possible advantage, though, in that you're doing something with a lot fewer controls than the average console (you said probably no EQs), which will save you a bundle. Think about maybe using rotary faders instead of linear, which will cut your costs substantially and make the metalwork a lot easier too. Yes, I know nobody uses rotary faders anymore, but think about it. Then think about Bill Putnam's board.

Peace,
Paul

i was considering rotary faders instead of linear, but i just love the feel of linear faders too much. plus linear faders impress clients and clients pay me money. or at least that's the plan...

[quote author="jimbo_baby84"]I know a damn good electrical engineer/designer, and he claims with the right parts and design we could make something that would ?wipe the floor with a neve/api/ssl? [/quote]

Well if you indeed have the right parts and design...

I'd be interested in hearing the actual definition of 'viping the floor' though.

You didn't elaborate very much....

How many program mixing buses (ie, is this only for creating a 40 x 2 for mixdown, or a 40 x 24 for tracking)? How many aux buses?

A 40-input desk can become RATHER wide...how much space do you have to park this contraption? <g>

Bri

Sound like a summing box on steroids to mee...
Why not leave out the pan, mute, solo and faders as well? I mean, 40 high quality faders alone will already cost you something like $2000 (probably more...)

...

[quote author="radiance"]Sound like a summing box on steroids to mee...
Why not leave out the pan, mute, solo and faders as well? I mean, 40 high quality faders alone will already cost you something like $2000 (probably more...)[/quote]

Or a mixdown and/or monitor board for a multitrack (either a standalone HD or PT or 2") of some kind? Then you need the faders and pan pots, and solo and everything else. You add aux sends for effects and that would be about perfect, provided you had some nice outboard EQ's you'd just patch in when you needed them.

If you study the giants and how they solved all of the practical problems of making a board, you can probably make something that sounds good. But you do have to do this, otherwise you are going to be in for an oscillatory adventure. Also, do you want to record, or build? Smaller projects let you do both. A large project like this one would consume all of your time for quite a long time. I'm doing a build of mic capsules, and I don't have any time for recording while I'm doing those.

I was looking at making a board for mixdown purposes, but basically it ends up being about the same cost as finding an older board and fixing up all the bad switches and worn-out pots, and even upgrading some of the parts in it.

I also wouldn't underestimate the difficulty in constructing the physical package for something as large as a 40 input console, particularly if you want to impress clients.

[quote author="jimbo_baby84"] he claims with the right parts and design we could make something that would ?wipe the floor with a neve/api/ssl?

thanks![/quote]

He sounds like an "armchair quarterback" to me. Check out my signature for what Yogi Berra would say about your buddy's claim. What exactly does "wipe the floor" mean in this context, better noise specs, more color, more transparency, more agressive, less agressive...? One man's "mop" is another man's Mackie. What sounds better, a tube pre with input/output xformers or a dual servo with no caps in the signal path? Of the three companies mentioned, which one is the best wiper?
There is lots of room for subjectiveness here, and lots of history with lots of designers and engineers working on the problems that your buddy seems to have allready solved in his head.

-Chris

I think it's possible....$20K is a fair chunk of change when no preamp or EQ is involved.

The devil would be in the master section, and routing. Figuring out what the requirements are there could be a real issue. The advantage though, and how you can 'mop the floor' over an SSL/Neve/Api is that you can tailor your setup to exactly the way you work. Maybe you only need 8 busses, maybe 6 auxes. Less stuff in the signal path is going to translate to a cleaner sounding console than one that has every option including the kitchen sink.

Of course, like everyone else said...is a cleaner console what you really want? SSL/Neve/Api, these all have a certain vibe to them, none are really squeaky clean (well maybe the newer 9K series SSLs).

Cheers,

Kris

wow thanks for all the fast replies! a lot of good points. i think it?ll just be 40x2. i really like drpat?s idea of leaving space to add pres and eq later. and dale116dot7 knows where i?m going with this. something that lets me use pro tools but mix the old fashion way. and i want to have a nice big gap in the middle of the desk for the master section, keyboard mouse and lcd screen. by the way this guy is no "armchair quarterback". like i said, he is a great designer. also, I know all consoles are different, but if for $20,000 I get something that compares favourably with any desirable model from ssl neve or api, i?ll be over the moon. what the guy said though is the choice of pre-amp doing the make-up gain on the 2 bus will give it it?s character, be it clean or coloured. that would make it a pretty flexible mixing tool, i?d guess. is having 8 mono sends going to screw with the sonic integrity an awful lot (if it?s done well?). oh...and don't big desks
have giant bars of copper in them for the mix bus...what does a giant bar of copper cost these days?
thanks again guys!

This is a seriously large undertaking. I thought of this a long time ago and came to the conclusion that its better to get a used quiet console and modify some circuits on it. Some Amek, TAC, MCI etc made mixers can be had for a few thousand dollars.

The thing is that Murphy's law is multiplied as many times as there are channels. For instance making an LA2A is a risk but a small risk as its a "clone" and has been already succesfully cloned by many. Chances are that it will work first time you turn on the switch. Yet many have problems with even that! Also time! How long would this project take! Yikes. You have to be prepared for every scenario.

Also building one or two small preamps is cheap and so the risk of loosing spent money and time is small (compared to a full mixer).
Maximum $1,000.00 for an LA2A that will work compared to at least $20,000 for a mixer that may or may not function the way you anticipated. And getting one channel to work does not a 40 channel board make or we would all be cloning mixing boards. There are very brave DIYers here and not many I would venture have tried to make a mixing board (if I am wrong I would love to hear from success stories).

Now don't take it the wrong way, I WANT you to succeed! I would love to see someone build a 40x2 mixer that is quiet and has headroom to boot.
It would be a marvelous accomplishment and would signal the way for the rest of us that have been too "puny" (Schwartzeneger voice off) to take this giant project on.

An alternative is to buy a decent used console and work on making it better. After that you will be in a better position to be succesful as you would have had experience.
You will learn a lot and you can still re-sell it later and so fund your own console.

The above is not meant to discourage you. Its just my experience and process from a long time ago. Maybe things have changed. You are a brave man indeed and I sincerely wish you luck and much success with this project.

Jim

[quote author="jimbo_baby84"]by the way this guy is no "armchair quarterback". like i said, he is a great designer. thanks again guys![/quote]

Sorry, I guess that was a little bit negative. Let me try to rephrase this. Bob Pease is a great engineer and designer. I wouldn't give him $20K to build me a mixing board. Unless your buddy has been doing stuff in this field (designing and building mixers for high end audio) and has first hand experience, I think the project will be an enormous undertaking with huge amounts of trial and error. I still think that the phrase "can wipe api/ssl/neve" would send up a red flag to me. It seems that every time I hear a similar boast from an audio guy, it doesn't work out. I have a good friend who was a service tech for Adcom. He swore up and down that he could improve guitar amps for himself and his friends. He incorporated many of the HiFi design tricks he had learned into a few amps and quickly realized that he was out of his field of expertise. BTW, he is still a great guy to fix or mod your HiFi equipment, and is currently studying about tube amplifiers for musical instruments.

Regards,
Chris

Exciting project!
so you meanly want aux modules, faders, panning and busses to build a pt/analog environment (if i understood right). So you will concentrate on build quality and extremely carefully chosen and built summing amps (your pal is right with them being the central point of color or clean sound). Highest quality switches, pots and faders and a simplistic yet brilliant design (as of lots are available already to study) would really make a monster mix/master desk of it's own. I think alot of us would be interested in the efforts you make with this. I don't think that it is impossible to do this. Invest some money into one, two or maybe three channel strip designs, decide for the one of the lowest noise and your liking, clone to 4 channels, choose 2 summing amps and listen/measure. Calculate if the 40ch mix would fit into your destination and give it a lot headroom noise and prizewise. If you still think it will met your needs don't hesitate and go for it (if you were successful to this point). Maybe it's a very very rewarding project, else you didn't lost that much money and maybe still can go for another design that's better, based on the experiences you get...
fascinating idea...worth a try i think.

kind regards

Martin

I would look at the Summing passive and active mixers that are in and coming into the market these days.

Another thing is to give your friend a test before you sink $20,000 into a new FIRST project. Try and design 1 preamp that will "wipe" a NEVE, API, John Hardy etc. If you guys can do that then I'd say you are standing on firmer ground but still remember a preamp or 1 channel does not make a complete mixer. Murphy will be there waiting.

Also try and get on as many pro audio forums as possible to find as many people that have actually succesfully built (and unsuccessfully as well so you learn from their mistakes) their own "high end" mixer.

Whenever I start a project a add 50% to my anticipated cost and time.
If it goes bad then I am less dissapointed if it goes well then I am extatic.
I am building 2 LA2A compressors and so far I have most of the parts and it will have cost me around $500.00 U.S. each to finish. So worse case I re-sell some of the parts (transformers alone are huge percentage of cost) and recoup, lets say 30% of my cost to be realistic. So out of $1K I am out $700.00! Ouch! But better than nothing. That is a real worse case scenario and the LA2A is one of the easiest (but not cheapest) projects.

So with that rule if you think it will cost you $20,000 and take hundreds of hours to plan, purchase parts, build and test. Allow for cost to go to $30,000 and time to over a thousand hours! Are you prepared for that eventuality? If not you risk sinking $20K and then finding out that to complete the job you need another $10K! If you quit you loose $20K, if you go on hopefully you will have your dream mixer and it will have cost you $30,000. Hopefully you will never want to re-sell it. Because no one else will pay that for a "no name brand" mixer.

You can get some very nice mixers used for $30K!

The reason I am saying all this is to avoid you getting in too deep and loose a lot of money and time. I went through the same process years ago and came to the above conclusion. I know what it feels like to dream of possibilities.

Now making a preamp, EQ or compressor is different. I tell you if guys here like Chris are saying to beware, I would think twice.

Maybe its best if your friend joined in this conversation to give us some if his thoughts. We may have a better understanding of the situation. Thats what this place is for.


Jim

[quote author="Bluzzi"]

Now making a preamp, EQ or compressor is different. I tell you if guys here like Chris are saying to beware, I would think twice.

Jim[/quote]

I agree 100%. a pre, comp or compressor are totally different. Jim, I think you have a great idea of Jimbo building a smaller project with his buddy to test the waters. I see now that my posts might sound overly negative, but that wasn't really my intention. I've been doing a lot of work on my house lately, so a construction analogy comes to mind.

It's pretty easy to build a spare bedroom in your house. It's a fair amount harder to build room with other functions, like a kitchen or bathroom. It is an entirely different issue building a whole house. Although a house is nothing but a bunch of rooms, the difficulty increases exponentially with the scale of the project. How the rooms relate to each other must be considered, how the loads spread out over the entire structure, how the utilities common to each of the rooms will work and flow, plumbing, electricity, HVAC, CATV, etc. That being said, I have a friend who did build her own house from scratch, with only the help of her former husband. It still can be done, but don't underestimate what you are getting into (notice I said former husband...). If I recall correctly, Rupert Neve swore that he would never design and build another console as long as he lived :shock: . Check out the web pages of the folks who replied to this post, there was at least one of us who did build a console from scratch. It surely can be done.

If you go ahead with the build, I am totally exited for you and wish the best of luck. Come back here often, I am sure there are a lot of interested folks who would love to help with whatever they can, myself included. :thumb:

-Chris

wipe something is a flag to me. I hope this person understands grounding very well.

thanks guys i really appreciate your encouragement and concern. the wipe the floor comment sounded too good to be true, but i do completely trust this guy, i just posted here because i was wondering if other people into the diy thing would agree such a thing could be done, because it seems to me that if you can design your own console for your own requirements and pay less than getting an industry standard board AND (subjectively) get better sound, not to mention the mojo of your own ideas, blood and sweat in the signal path, it's a complete no brainer. that and i was bored at my non audio related day job and for some reason no-one around seemed to be interested in discussing mixer design. but yeah i totally trust the guy. his own design of pre amps were reviewed in my local audio mag, where they were claimed to top the 1073, and i think he's doing a passive 16 channel thing for someone at the moment, so if anyone that i know of can do it in my neck of the woods, it's him. (did i mention i live in australia?) and i'm only 21 and mostly broke, so the longer it takes, the longer i have to pay, and the more i'll learn.