does electrolytics brand matter? (much that is)

Im trying to decide if to buy "expensive" rubycon electrolytics caps for my 1272 type preamp.

Or if i should just save some money and get industry surplus electrolytics of different brands instead...
I dont know what brands, when i asked the company they said that they had alot of different ones.

Any thoughts? About sound quality, reliabilty etc?

Does it matter really? Are some cap positions more important than other in this circuit?

I have some cheap jamicon caps for some of the values now, but im a bit reluctant to use them cause im afraid they will as you say, "suck".

If it does matter, ill probably just order rubycon, nichicon, etc caps for all the values and be done with it.
But saving money is always a good thing so, you see my dilemma.

Any thoughts that can help clear this mess up for me?
/Jonas

read stuff in the metas

Yes someplaces caps can make a difference

find the Jung Marsh article in the meta

This subject could be a book.

ok, i will do that!
(though i can now honestly say having glanced through the afforementioned article, that it is way over my head. I dont know much about electronics, im just really good with a soldering iron :green: )

Perhaps i should just get the good caps, and not worry about it.
/Jonas

If you're looking for a rule of thumb... if the caps are in the audio signal path, then it's usually worth it to go for some type of Low-ESR cap. Maybe even bipolar depending on its usage (I'm still trying to figure out myself where this matters).
If not, then don't worry about it.

take a meter and see if there is a forming voltage across the Al electro. If there is and it is the correct way a reg polar might be fine.

An old "trick" I think it was in a letter form W.Jung in TAA in the late 70's is to use a a meter to check the voltage across Al caps in opamp circuits and orient them correctly.

opamps used with + - supplies have offset voltages and a cheap way to use Al electros better is to measure and install the caps so the offsets work to your advantage the caps might not go the same way it can be kind of random. This has been done for some time FWIW my 1987 sony CD player has a designed in offset for the electros if I traced the filter section correctly

If there is no forming voltage a bipolar might be better

Sorry to not have handy refs or links but Cyril Bateman's articles, including significant measured results favoring bipolar 'lytics, have been published in Electronics World (UK). Googl* will lead you to a site that sells article reprints. They are pricey :sad:

I have not verified his findings either experimentally or sonically, but I would note that Jens*n Transformers mentions a bipolar as having much lower distortion in a preamp circuit iirc.

I definitely agree with Gus that having the correct polarity across normal 'lytics even at low voltages is helpful.

Some people swear by the idea that a significant bias across the cap makes it work better, including those that place them back-to-back with a high-value resistor to a d.c. bias source in between. JB(h)L even made some speakers that required batteries for the crossover network for a while :shock: Bateman says this does not improve things.

Also, the common rule of thumb that lower loss in capacitors equates to better fidelity is widely agreed upon. A dissenting voice can be heard here and there, including one proponent of foil/paper/oil caps who claims that it is the mechanical damping of any tendency to piezoelectricity (when the cap acts like an acoustic transducer under a.c. drive, or is microphonic under d.c. bias) that makes these bulky and expensive caps sound better.

BC caps are available in the USA today from digikey, these are the same caps that were originally spec'd in neve gear. They arent expensive or boutiquey or anything liek that and they sound great. In my experience, changing different type of caps can make huge sonic differences in certain circuits. Ive changed power supply filter caps and had the audio change. I dont know if there's a rule or not about what works where, Ive always just experimented and plugged stuff in and listened. Time consuming, but you can prove to yourself what makes a difference and what doesnt just by listening.

dave

im in sweden, so ordering from the usa seems a bit hard to me. Have to find a good source for electrolytics nearby i guess.

Though it seems to me that all stores here either only have jamicon caps or are very expensive..

/Jonas

Elfa has a quite wide collection of electrolytics. Try to search there:
http://www.elfa.se/fi/

cheers,

Okko

what about those elna low impendance/105 degree caps at elfa, are they good for audio?

Cause i just found out that theres an elfa store in my neighbour town, so i can just drive there and pickup the stuff i want.


My fingers are itching to start building, so gotta order everything soon before my head explodes (plus i really want to get these working soon, so i can start recording again).


/Jonas

BC caps are available in the USA today from digikey

Click to expand...

im in sweden, so ordering from the usa seems a bit hard to me. Have to find a good source for electrolytics nearby i guess.

Click to expand...

Can't imagine BC are hard to find in Europe - as I only recently found out :roll: these are the 'new-Philips'-caps (hence the Neve-reference above). When I bought caps @ the local supplier I got those BC's and just thought hmm, what's this for kind of non-descript brand. Turned out they were something like the continuation of those from Philips (if I'm correct).

Bye,

Peter

The BC caps are definitely the current version of the Phillips caps used by Neve. They are also the caps Neve is currently using in the 1081 and 1073 reissues. I'm pretty sure you can get them from Radio Spares, they have branches all over the world, including Sweden. Farnell also has branches worldwide, and probably carries them as well. As for the Elnas, the low impedance is more important than the 105 deg rating. Elna's caps designed for audio applications ( Silmic, Cerafine, Tonerex) are all rated for 85deg, as are Rubycon Black Gates and Nichicon Muse series IIRC. Any of those caps are usually sold by audiophile suppliers and carry a high price tag. They are often quite a bit larger than other equivalent caps, so make sure you have room for them. Another good choice would be the Panasonic FC series - small package, relatively low cost, low ESR, 105 deg, and good audio performance.

Also, the original Neve circuit boards used axial lead caps. Most ( all except BC) caps mentioned above are radial lead. They'll probably fit ok, but you may want to make sure before you buy large quantities.

Dave Hecht

I have posted in the past about 85C or 105C I don't care to much about temp I try not to use caps in a high temp area. I care more about the seal. I have seen unused caps where the lead is turning green at the rubber/plastic? seal.

Mass, dia to lenght ratio, construction and ESR seem to count the most with Al electros. There are some smaller less mass caps that measure and sound fine. So the mass part seems to be less of an issue with the good caps.

FWIW one of the best electros made were the pan HFs IMO heavy and big for the value. The FCs don't seem to measure as well.

I have measured hundreds if not thousands of caps over the years I have installed or removed from equipment.

Funny thing some hold the cap value and ESR goes up or some lose cap value but ESR is not that bad or some lose value and ESR goes up. I would like to understand the chemistry of the failures

what about those elna low impendance/105 degree caps at elfa, are they good for audio?

Click to expand...

From what I've read, the Cerafines have extremely low distortion in the mid-band, but have LF distortion specs that are similar to many cheap electrolytics.

There is some good data in this thread:

http://www.groupdiy.com/index.php?topic=1929&highlight=electrolytic

Peter

I am about to order the caps for my g9, and I was going to go all Panasonic FCs, but digikey is missing a few (namely the HT filter caps), so I was going to fill the missing ones in with Nichicon PWs.

From what I've read, people "claim" the panasonics are brighter...

The only thing I know for sure is that I dislike brightness.

People also say the panasonic FCs are more "hi-fi". I want hi-fi, but I don't want excessive brightness.

So how do I achive hi-fi without a lot of brightness?

Oh deary...

Mailliw

I mean this in a good way and it is not a joke. The best way is to buy a bunch of different brand caps and try them, don't believe what you read on the web even my posts test them yourself.

The little brown nichicons are nice.

Try the name brand switching caps from panasonic, nichicon, elan, rubycon, mallory,atoms,samwha,samyoung

The electros in the G9 have forming voltages so the sound from the Al electro is minimized. I think one hears polar Al electros more in +- supplies opamp circuits.

to back up what gus is saying in my own special brand of abrasiveness, if you havent spent the time listening to different caps in different circuits, you might as well just pick something you can get in the value you need which you can afford and not pay attention to any of this. No, I dont mean this in some snotty Ive done the leg work and you havent so fuck off kind of way but Im beginning to see more and more that context and application always need to be considered before simply labeling a cap good or bad or hifi or bright or whatever. Many or probably all of us have the best intentions in mind when reccomending stuff, but I think a lot of the labeling can be misleading if you havent actually heard the cap in question and how it can benefit the *specific* situation you have at hand. When you listen to the same type of cap in different circuits, you get a real good idea of how the advantages or disadvantages of that cap can work for you. I think the absolute first consideration you have to make when selecting a cap is the type of input and output transformer you are using or if you are using one at all. I find myself compensating for the effects of a transformer most with the choice of electrolytics in the circuit. Here's one such example:

I typically do not at all like panasonic FC caps. I dont know or care what they measure on test equipment or how long they last or any of that stuff, I just dont normally like the sound that comes out of the speakers after installing them. I recently built (or am still building, argh) an 8x2 mixer from api 312 and 325 amplifiers. The busses are fed from a transformer and the output line amplifiers have a transformer on the output. I used BC caps for the channel amps but selected FC caps for the buss output to "speed up" the output amps. So far, sounds nice. I dont care for the FC's on the channels as I dont typically reach for an api type amp when I want "open" sounding, so while those caps work against the idea Im trying to get with a direct channel output, they most definitely help the buss from getting overly muddy. Sure, I may label them "bright" caps, but they dont sound bright in the application Im using them in as a result of the "darkened" content that is passing through them.

Im also working on another 8x2 mixer with 1272's. The 283's mostly got bc's on the boards, but all the power decoupling is FC and I'll probably go to some real super hifi type cap for the make up amps. People talk about 1272's in other places like they are the holy grail or something, but summing 8 channels is going to be a muddy wreck of a mess but careful attention to tthe type of caps in strategic places or where or where not to use transformers can all help to "even" things out a bit.

Its important to not label a cap as something and then throw it away, you never know how it may be able to balance your circuit. If you have a "hifi" type cap in a circuit with a lundahl, its going to do a much different thing coming out of the speakers than installing that same exact type of cap in a circuit with cloudy carnhills. You really should judge the cap on an application specific basis working back from the transformer you intend to use. Thats the flow chart that has led me to most success, but you really do need to listen to a few different things to get the perspective on how the strong and weak points of a cap compare to each other. you can set up a neve or api circuit to sound night and day different from the next guy and we all have such incredibly different taste, so much of this should really be judged for yourself. A guy, with my background and taste and typical working application calling something "hi-fi" probably doesnt even chart on the classical music guy's chart of fidelity...

caps, well electro caps at least, are typically cheap enough to buy a bunch of different stuff. It is so so so so worth your time to make the small investment in a handful of different things and spend a day or two comparing as many different types of caps as you can, making recordings as you go so you can compare all your tests, at once, a day or week later with a fresh head. If you bother to put the time in, all your DIY projects after will benefit as you can make a choice about these things with some personal authority instead of trusting that I said so and so was crappy on the internet. Before I realized I didnt like panasonic FC caps in most applications I tried them in, I read everywhere online by people who's opinion I trust that they were the best cap available. go figure.

dave

I understand, thanks.

To add a little to Dave's post.

There are crappy Al caps that I will not use.

After you try a bunch of caps and have some time you pick caps like you pick transformer alloy and winding. It is kind of like using spice with food. It is not always a big change but when you are working for the best sound you want, it is what you do.

It is a total design thing. I would think you could build a very nice G9 with a lot of different brand, model caps. Maybe FC with the OEPs would be good my ears don't like the oep G9 as much as the Lundell G9 but someone else does. This is the fun and frustration.

Al caps are the ones that seem to show the differences the most. film caps have differences but they are more reduced.

Also like Dave posted it is the sum of circuit. FWIW when Dave and myself were working on one of his microphones I had two film caps we talked a little about the sound and he picked the one I thought he would pick. I think this was because we had both tried a lot of caps and when I looked at the studio my mind said to me I think Dave would want this cap. Someone else would have wanted a different one.

This is why some DIY because you can't alway buy what you want.