133% the stuff for 190% the cash

[PRR]

Why does 12/3G cable cost almost twice the price of 12/2G ??

Background: 12/2 is (despite the name) three #12 wires in a jacket. 12/3 is four #12 wires in a jacket. Same stuff otherwise. The copper goes up by 4/3 or 133%. The cheap plastic goes up about 5/4 or 120%. The cost goes up nearly 2X, 193% !!

Is that shade of RED very precious? (Costs the same as black or green when you buy individual wires.)

Does 12/2 sell that much more? Kinda-sorta. 12/2 is THE cable for US houses; 12/3 is falling out of favor under revised Codes. But my tiny HomeDepot has ample stock of 12/3 (how I made my mistake) so it can't be a "poor seller".

The price of 12/2 is very much "market driven". As metal prices rise/fall/rise, H-D changes the price on the stuff on the shelf. (Same for SharkBite brass fittings.) Every time I need wire or plumbing, China goes on a buying spree, prices rise, I pay much more than I had expected when the project started a few months prior.

 

[joaquins]

I guess nobody uses 4W so 3W is cheaper (marketing rules, more demand but much more offer, easier to stock and sell, etc.)

Other than that I can't see a reason in the production end for cost to be higher. You could ask a manufacturer to sell directly, if you need a few full rolls it might be possible. Even if you don't you could still ask for big quantity prices to see if the difference comes from there or just at the end user market.

JS

 

[JohnRoberts]

The first website I shopped (Wesbell) quotes 1000' of 12/2 (PVC jacket) at around $0.50 a foot.  1000' of 12/3 (PVC) for $0.70 a foot. So not linear with material used, but in the right direction and not 2x.

The prices you find in consumer distribution will have a number of other variables involved.  The labor involved in making bulk wire is mostly set up (expensive) and machine time (cheap), plus materials (proportionate).

I see many such pricing quirks in almost everything. Wesbell offers free shipping with $250 of wire if you order before midnight tonight. .

JR

 

[The Kid]

I'm sure you already thought of this, but I was gonna recommend going across the street to the blue store to compare prices.  However, after checking online, at least, prices are pretty close to each other, so never mind!  Sometimes, though, it's amazing the difference in prices between the two, and for the same exact part!!  Even the re-branded stuff.  Which is why I always check both stores before I buy. 

 

[JohnRoberts]

I'm sure you already thought of this, but I was gonna recommend going across the street to the blue store to compare prices.  However, after checking online, at least, prices are pretty close to each other, so never mind!  Sometimes, though, it's amazing the difference in prices between the two, and for the same exact part!!  Even the re-branded stuff.  Which is why I always check both stores before I buy. 

web merchants crawl competitors websites and try to offer similar prices, (they can even look at your cookies to see where you priced stuff. Maybe look at unconventional (non retail) channels.

JR

 

[benb]

Why does 12/3G cable cost almost twice the price of 12/2G ??

Background: 12/2 is (despite the name) three #12 wires in a jacket. 12/3 is four #12 wires in a jacket. Same stuff otherwise. The copper goes up by 4/3 or 133%. The cheap plastic goes up about 5/4 or 120%. The cost goes up nearly 2X, 193% !!

What is 12/3 used for?  12/2 is clearly all one needs to power a 120V outlet (hot, neutral, ground) in the USA.

Is it for 240V? I found out in recent years the "standard" 240V electric clothes dryer outlet changed from three-prong (120v/ground-neutral/other-12-v_phase) to four-prong (120/neutral/separate ground/other-120V).

 

[JohnRoberts]

What is 12/3 used for?  12/2 is clearly all one needs to power a 120V outlet (hot, neutral, ground) in the USA.

Is it for 240V? I found out in recent years the "standard" 240V electric clothes dryer outlet changed from three-prong (120v/ground-neutral/other-12-v_phase) to four-prong (120/neutral/separate ground/other-120V).

I recently had to replace my kitchen wall oven that failed to regulate temperature and was too old to find repair parts for.

The new oven had a (240v) 4 wire tail, and of course my red neck house only had 3 wires (no safety ground) in the existing power drop. This is apparently so common the oven hook up instructions shows how to bootleg the safety ground to the neutral.

I was going to pay a local electrician to install a proper 4 wire drop but that sucker still hasn't returned my phone calls.  I gave up waiting for him and did the install myself using the existing power drop. I am not a fan of bootleg grounds but in this case I considered it better than floating the safety ground. Bootleg grounds are probably not allowed in new construction.

JR

 

[The Kid]

What is 12/3 used for?  12/2 is clearly all one needs to power a 120V outlet (hot, neutral, ground) in the USA.

Is it for 240V? I found out in recent years the "standard" 240V electric clothes dryer outlet changed from three-prong (120v/ground-neutral/other-12-v_phase) to four-prong (120/neutral/separate ground/other-120V).

12/whatever is for 20 amp circuits, 14 for 15 amp.  Most of the wiring in house is 14, except the appliances that need the 20, which would be the 12.

 

[PRR]

> 1000' of 12/2 (PVC jacket) at around $0.50 a foot

I want 250' (for now). Wesbell quotes $119 (+ship); H-D charges $72. No-brainer. And shows that H-D's price is very competitive (often half the list price at genuine electrical distributors).

I'm not impressed with Wesbell. I have bought from Platt Electric Supply and Crescent Electric Supply Company, shopped at WESCO. Greybar is an old serious house but not small-fry friendly.

> going across the street to the blue store to compare prices.

We had a Lowes for two years and they folded-up. After sitting vacant it is being converted to a giant bio-lab (there's money in mutations).

> What is 12/3 used for?

Today: "3-way" switches. Two SPDT switches top and bottom of stairs. Either one works the stair light. In the past: it was common to run a dishwasher and a disposal on 12/3. Two hots and one return in the same place. Some problem when switching off one breaker not the other when there was a neutral fault. Requiring a 2P breaker fixed that. But now my town wants Arc-fault breakers on about everything. Being up-priced GFI (without a GFI tag) they need totally separate neutrals, so that's out, as are other schemes to save one wire for two 120V circuits.

12/3G would also be suitable for a small (3,700 Watt) 120/240 generator; I have one (but I wired for 30A so I could upsize the genny later).

> in recent years the "standard" 240V electric clothes dryer outlet changed

19 years ago; but that's "recent" to some of us.

The 3/4-wire "bootleg" may be fairly innocent on an oven. There may be no 120V path; or only the clock (even that is dying as global markets encourage pure 230V working). Then the N should never have current and the G is a pure case ground.

> Most of the wiring in house is 14

In "a" house? Or in "your" house?

#14 used to be common. The 1949 house I am pulling wire into is ALL #14 2-wire (no ground). But essentially all new construction runs #12(/3) *everywhere*. 20A (#12) is required, twice, in kitchen/pantry, and I believe for Laundry, and for all but the smallest furnaces. The labor per foot is the same either size, you can save 1 or 2 breakers with all 20A circuits, and all residential breaker boxes are too dang small. (I scored a 42-slot on sale and don't think I over-bought.) It may be that I do not hang with the cheapest builders, true. But I've pulled 23A on #12 wire, and don't think #14 is adequate for anything not KNOWN to be a small hard-wired load (small furnace or super-small central A/C).

 

[JohnRoberts]

> 1000' of 12/2 (PVC jacket) at around $0.50 a foot

I want 250' (for now). Wesbell quotes $119 (+ship); H-D charges $72. No-brainer. And shows that H-D's price is very competitive (often half the list price at genuine electrical distributors).

I'm not impressed with Wesbell. I have bought from Platt Electric Supply and Crescent Electric Supply Company, shopped at WESCO. Greybar is an old serious house but not small-fry friendly.

I am not pimping for wesbell, they were my first hit on google, and demonstrated roughly linear pricing with material.

> going across the street to the blue store to compare prices.

We had a Lowes for two years and they folded-up. After sitting vacant it is being converted to a giant bio-lab (there's money in mutations).

we still have a lowes about 25 miles away (I think), I don't know where the nearest home despot is...

JR

> What is 12/3 used for?

Today: "3-way" switches. Two SPDT switches top and bottom of stairs. Either one works the stair light. In the past: it was common to run a dishwasher and a disposal on 12/3. Two hots and one return in the same place. Some problem when switching off one breaker not the other when there was a neutral fault. Requiring a 2P breaker fixed that. But now my town wants Arc-fault breakers on about everything. Being up-priced GFI (without a GFI tag) they need totally separate neutrals, so that's out, as are other schemes to save one wire for two 120V circuits.

12/3G would also be suitable for a small (3,700 Watt) 120/240 generator; I have one (but I wired for 30A so I could upsize the genny later).

> in recent years the "standard" 240V electric clothes dryer outlet changed

19 years ago; but that's "recent" to some of us.

The 3/4-wire "bootleg" may be fairly innocent on an oven. There may be no 120V path; or only the clock (even that is dying as global markets encourage pure 230V working). Then the N should never have current and the G is a pure case ground.

> Most of the wiring in house is 14

In "a" house? Or in "your" house?

#14 used to be common. The 1949 house I am pulling wire into is ALL #14 2-wire (no ground). But essentially all new construction runs #12(/3) *everywhere*. 20A (#12) is required, twice, in kitchen/pantry, and I believe for Laundry, and for all but the smallest furnaces. The labor per foot is the same either size, you can save 1 or 2 breakers with all 20A circuits, and all residential breaker boxes are too dang small. (I scored a 42-slot on sale and don't think I over-bought.) It may be that I do not hang with the cheapest builders, true. But I've pulled 23A on #12 wire, and don't think #14 is adequate for anything not KNOWN to be a small hard-wired load (small furnace or super-small central A/C).

 

[PRR]

> I am not pimping for wesbell

I know. I'm saying if you want stuff, or want to know if your electrician is marking-up too much, Platt and Crescent are creditable suppliers. You can buy for less but the average local sparky will be paying about these prices.

 

[Matador]

My grandfather said it was a waste to run anything other than 12/3 and 20 amp breaker runs.  The 12/3 has a spare wire you can swap to should something happen to the main one.

In fact if memory serves he ran 10 gauge to kitchens and garages, and put fridges, stoves, and ovens on separate circuits - something about not having blenders and vaccuums shutting off power to the kitchen and making the beer warm.