60s/70s drum techniques - mix-down busing

[StarTrucker]

For the old timers -

For the 60s and 70s drum sounds that have the effect of being very compressed and uniform, is the bus compressor the key? Were any individual tracks put through to tape or was it done by sub-mixing into a stereo bus then muting the individual channels? This way the only drum sounds on tape would be the stereo submix.

Mamas and Papas - California Dreaming
Al Stewart - Time Passages
Bob Dylan - Street Legal
Elton John - Madman Across the Water

Was the soft, cohesive sound a result of mixing or of mic'ing techniques that already sounded gel'd and uniform?

 

[scott2000]

 

[Brian Roth]

Studios back then were usually VERY "dead" acoustically. Walls and ceilings completely covered with thick layers of fluffy fiber glass insulation behind burlap-type material for the outer covering. Drums commonly sitting inside a small "gazebo" structure with the same fiber glass/burlap covering the walls and ceiling of the enclosure.

The drums themselves were also individually deadened. No front head on the kick and pillows stuffed into the drum shell. No bottom heads on the toms. Layers of tape on the drum heads of the snare and toms. No room mics on the drums, since they were enclosed inside a gazebo with heavy acoustic wall treatments. DEAD DEAD....lol.

And, gates on each drum mic even deadened it further. Can't have any after-ring on those toms! It was just the recording fad of the era.

Bri

 

[radardoug]

And recorded to tape.

 

[kags]

And recorded to tape.

Plus comps with super-fast attack times - Fairchild, urei, spectra sonic, etc. No transients left.

I’ve heard lots of older LA engineers brag about getting most of their drum sound from a single overhead (in front of the drummers head) dynamic mic, like a 57 or re20 smashed by a 670 and then to tape. Don Smith said that mic was most of the kit sound in the Tom Petty Records he did.

Prob lots of notes taken during The Beach Boys and Mamas and Papas sessions…

 

[ruffrecords]

Don't know about the US, but in the 70s in the UK LEDE (live end dead end) studio style was popular. Drums were down the dead end behind gobos. Brass was often recorded facing the live end for a bit of acoustic delay. And as others have mentioned - no room mics.

Cheers

Ian

 

[Brian Roth]

Don't know about the US, but in the 70s in the UK LEDE (live end dead end) studio style was popular. Drums were down the dead end behind gobos. Brass was often recorded facing the live end for a bit of acoustic delay. Ans as others have mentioned - no room mics.

Cheers

Ian

Yes, it was pretty common for the "anechoic" studios (with sufficient square footage) to have a corner of the tracking room with a parquet floor and wooden wall covering. That was originally used for string or horn overdubs, then later for drum tracking when the "thud thud" drum sound fell out of fashion.

In my former home city, one room lasted from the mid 1970's until a few years ago. I was involved with it through several owners that entire time. It was built inside of a warehouse building that had a high exterior roof. Alas, the building was sold, the studio ripped out and the space turned into a marijuana "grow house". Yes, medical marijuana was legalized in Oklahoma a few years ago.

Fortunately, there is still a legacy website for it. You can see photos of the "live corner" and the "gazebo".

https://lunacyrecords.com/

Bri

 

[Dylan W]

Those are four pretty different drum sounds. Most of the 60s recordings were done in relatively live studios with a mix of absorption, reflection, and diffusion. I don’t think the super dead studios, gates, etc came in vogue until the early 70s.

I hear the evenness you’re talking about. I think it’s a combination of transformers (which tend to shave transients a little bit), tape, tape machine electronics (a Scully sounds way different and more vintage than a Studer), and of course great players. Also not close miking everything to death, especially for the 60s stuff. The Mamas and Papas song (1965, Hal Blaine on drums) is probably done with something like a single mic overhead (maybe a 44, 77, U67) and a mic on the kick, plus bleed from any other open mics in the room.

The Al Stewart song (1977) sounds like a dead room with more close mics. No idea what they used but something like a pair of U87s for OH, 57 on snare, U87 on toms, and D12/RE20 on kick gets you that sound for sure.

Don’t think you need too much compression. Bussing tracks together to tape does seem to gel things a bit. Probably one track for the Mamas and Papas record (if not also bussed with bass, etc). Maybe four tracks for the Al Stewart song (K, S, stereo pair).

 

[ruffrecords]

Fortunately, there is still a legacy website for it. You can see photos of the "live corner" and the "gazebo".

https://lunacyrecords.com/

Bri

Gotta love the roof tiles on the iso booth

Cheers

Ian

 

[KrIVIUM2323]

Don't know about the US, but in the 70s in the UK LEDE (live end dead end) studio style was popular. Drums were down the dead end behind gobos. Brass was often recorded facing the live end for a bit of acoustic delay. Ans as others have mentioned - no room mics.

Cheers

Ian

Please apologize if it seems pedantic Ian ( it's not) but you can't talk about LEDE for studio ( recording space): it's a control room dedicated principle aiming at reproduction through loudspeakers, not for takes of played instruments.

In T.Hidley's room from 70's ( i've spend quite some time in some of them in Paris) there was often a part of the recording booth which had a big glass or mirror with tiled floor and other part of room was very dead.

Iirc Olympic studio had a fully variable acoustic with different treatment on rotating pillars all around the room. Very clever approach.

 

[thor.zmt]

For the 60s and 70s drum sounds that have the effect of being very compressed and uniform, is the bus compressor the key?

Back then good drummers could keep time, play consistent and all that.

They probably played drums every day for many hours. Recording sessions, than live concerts.

Today drummers that play live a lot still sound like that. A local 70's & 80's hard rock cover band I often see at a small bar have been playing most evenings for nearly 20 Years. The drummer is amazingly consistent if he wants to be, no compressor, nothing. Not even Mic's on the Kit.

Thor

 

[KrIVIUM2323]

Yes it was a time where most bands played on stage track list of album to be recorded for month before entering studio. As a result it sounded great once recorded.
That said i would not say good drummers of the days were better than now ( just listen to Eg Led Zeppelin, Bohnam/Jones often 'float' around, they weren't this tight. That said this is what make the groove so...). I worked with incredibly tight metal drummers some years ago, almost as tight as a sequencer. Very impressive.

Some friends of mine decided to go record one of their album at Electrical Studio with S.Albini ( RIP).
He insisted they come to Chicago with the full track list perfectly known by every musicians ( lots of rehearsal) and they booked 10 studio days for rec/mix. They tracked everything in 4 days ( (2 guitars, one bass, one drummer, one singer) including drum and amp setup), Steve mixed in 2 or three days the 12 or 14 tracks.

All musicians got lesson as Steve favoured coherency of whole band sound rather than individual performance hence limited the number of overdub to a minimum. They now work very differently for studio pre production. And the free days was spent discovering Chicago and watching Steve winning poker games every evenning.

 

[thor.zmt]

Yes it was a time where most bands played on stage track list of album to be recorded for month before entering studio. As a result it sounded great once recorded.

I remember those days, whole band in the studio, single takes for many songs, no overdubs. And because musicians knew both tracks, their instruments and their craft like the back of their hands, they had time for small interplay that made it all the more interesting.

These days many songs are track by track stitched together from the notes the "artists" accidentally played right.

That said i would not say good drummers of the days were better than now ( just listen to Eg Led Zeppelin, Bohnam/Jones often 'float' around, they weren't this tight. That said this is what make the groove so...).

Of course drummers grove, intentionally. And if you have the whole band in the studio without click track, the bass player pushes the drummer, the drummer speeds up, the rhythm guitar get in on the act etc. but unless for a specific unnatural sound you didn't need to compress drum's for big variations loudness...

Some friends of mine decided to go record one of their album at Electrical Studio with S.Albini ( RIP).
He insisted they come to Chicago with the full track list perfectly known by every musicians ( lots of rehearsal) and they booked 10 studio days for rec/mix. They tracked everything in 4 days ( (2 guitars, one bass, one drummer, one singer) including drum and amp setup), Steve mixed in 2 or three days the 12 or 14 tracks.

All musicians got lesson as Steve favoured coherency of whole band sound rather than individual performance hence limited the number of overdub to a minimum.

That sounds like I enjoyed to work. That was on the other side of the Iron Curtain. Once in the west in the 90's I quit sound engineering quickly and too up "security contracting" for a while instead.

I do care about music, armed people who are nasty pieces of work and put themselves into my firing line, a lot less.

They now work very differently for studio pre production.

Oh hell yeah. The future we live in now is so bright, I gotta wear shades.



But I guess it all depends on your point of view....



Thor

 

[ruffrecords]

Please apologize if it seems pedantic Ian ( it's not) but you can't talk about LEDE for studio ( recording space): it's a control room dedicated principle aiming at reproduction through loudspeakers, not for takes of played instruments.

You are absolutely right. I could have sworn I had seen in in the context of recording rooms but the internet says otherwise. I seem to remember reading about it in a 1970s copy of Studio Sound. I shall have to check the archives.

Cheers

Ian

 

[Walrus]

Well St3 in CBS Studios London (as was called at the time) had a LEDE in the recording room when it was refurbished in the early 90’s.
Unfortunately due to a miscalculation by the designer, it ended up Dead end Deader end and needed slight ‘adjustment’.

 

[KrIVIUM2323]

Well, to my knowledge works of Don and Chip Davis about LEDE are related to control room, management of early reflections and management of ITG following Haas discovery.

That said 'biased'/polarized studio ( recording room) were common in 70's/80's and could be described as live end dead end too. But technically speaking it could not follow concept developed by Davis ( because instruments directivity is way different than loudspeakers and location would not be as defined as in a control room).

Anyway this is nitpicking, i think everybody got the idea and image of studio Ian described.

I whitnessed studio acoustic's refurbishing turning bad too...

 

[jensenmann]

You are absolutely right. I could have sworn I had seen in in the context of recording rooms but the internet says otherwise. I seem to remember reading about it in a 1970s copy of Studio Sound. I shall have to check the archives.

Cheers

Ian

LEDE refers to control rooms. But there were many studio which had a similar concept in their live room. IIRC Philipp Newel describes some of these rooms and concepts in his book Recoding Spaces.

 

[ruffrecords]

I have been sifting through 1970s issues of Studio Sound to see if I can find a mention of LEDE, so far without success. However, I did find a reference in the June 1970 issue to Maximum Sound Studios which it says has a fairly dead room with thick curtains at one end. These are drawn back and used to record reflected sound from the bare wall.

https://www.worldradiohistory.com/A...ive-Studio-Sound/70s/Studio-Sound-1970-06.pdf

Cheers

Ian

 

[TimG]

Here are some references from Modern Recording.

https://www.worldradiohistory.com/A...&zoom_xml=0&zoom_query=Lede+&zoom_per_page=10


1. Modern-Recording-1983-05.pdf
... direct sound. the low- frequency energy is now monitors in the wall. They should be concentrated into half the space, mechanically isolated from the wall which boosts the lows by 3 dB. by foam rubber, fiber glass, or Putting a speaker in a corner boosts rubber shock mounts. That prevents the bass output even more, by con- sound from traveling through the Actually, an LEDE room is not centrating the low- frequency energy wall and ceiling to the listener before necessarily all- absorptive in the front into one-quarter the space. The highs the direct sound arrives through the and reflective in the rear. It only aren't affected much by speaker air. If flush- mounting is impractical, needs to meet the following criteria: placement near a surface because you can weaken the ...

2. Modern-Recording-1982-11.pdf
... - Last year I purchased an Audio I was wondering if there was ceived ills of your acoustic environ- Control Model C -101 Octave Equal- any way that I could use the ment, first I would suggest acoustic izer with Real -Time Spectrum calibrated microphone and associ- treatment of your room. You may Analyzer and Pink Noise Gen- ated input stages of the Model C- want to investigate LEDE (live end erator. I was very impressed with 101 with a Hewlett Packard 3580A dead end) acoustic treatment using the way it allowed me to equalize spectrum analyzer (available for Sonex or at a much more reasonable my basement studio. I now feel my use through the company I cost. Owens Corning painted linear that octave resolution is not enough. work for) to obtain greater resolu ...

3. Modern-Recording-1982-01.pdf
... " "Latest Game," "Valley of the in this business; for the state -of- the -art benefits of recording in a room en- Thundering Hearts," "Come Now and top -of-the -line. And to me that closed by non -parallel walls. Lady," "Jack and Diane," "Over Your studio was the natural progression for "The room is a modified LEDE (Live Shoulder," "Weakest Moments," a place that's prided itself on being the and Dead End) ," says Emerman. "Cat's In The Kitchen" and a remake best. So I finally thought, what the "The room has no reflections and no of Garland Jeffreys' "Livin' For Me." hell, I'll just build it myself right here colorations ...

4. Modern-Recording-1985-10.pdf
... Gabriel) added during the mix. signs that take into account the sound were on the premises!!" And let me tell you, they are some reflections off of the console, and the This is exactly what happens in of the absolutely cleanest tracks pos- echo of the back wall, such as the your cellar or bedroom studio when sible. No leakage, and they could be LEDE'" (Live End Dead End) de- you try to use room mic'ing in a simi- brought anywhere to be remixed be- sign, but unless you can spend more lar situation, right? Especially if the cause the only difference would be for the treatment of the room than room is square or rectangular, and is in the other studio's machine, console, you can ...

5. Modern-Recording-1985-04.pdf
... last album, the two different brands of machines but I don't think it was used for that. "Revolution By Night" was also our that we used (an Ampex and a MR&M : Do you know if any of the first CD. Studer) was real hard, because they studios that you use have a special tOt fOt 1O1 fOt 4Q4f01>tOtt01 control room design, LEDE, etc. We can't tell what's going to be a hit. BD: I don't think so. I don't think either Boogie, Kingdom or the Auto- We'd be really happy if some of mat mix room (studio C) is a trade- mark design. our raunchier stuff were hits. But it's MR &M : What kind of boards do they have? never worked

 

[ruffrecords]

Thanks Timg. It certainly seems at that point to use LEDE in both the studio and control room context which probably explains my memories of it.

Cheers

Ian