Alternate Replacement Capsule for Audio Technica 4050?

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outoftune

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I have an AT 4050 that has developed a noisy capsule. The replacement from the manufacturer is almost the same as the cost of buying another mic used.

Does anyone know of an alternate aftermarket replacement that might work? This is not the standard size of LDC capsule, it's about 1/2" diameter. I know it will alter the sound but I'm mainly looking to get it working again without having to shell out tons of $.
 
gyraf said:
Clean it?

Noise can really only come from dirt...

Jakob E.
i was a bit worried to try my hand at that, but i guess i have nothing to lose. do you have a recommended method? i have never been able to find a good guide / instructions for this.
 
cleaning capsules is an art in itself. If you are not concerned of the outcome , this will be a good practice to get your feet wet. If you are concerned at the outcome might take it to someone and have it done.
 
gyraf said:
Cleaning.txt from josephson iirc. Maybe in the wayback archives?

I have that in the file cabinet. However at the request of of the company

"More than twenty years ago, we posted some comments to rec.audio.pro about
cleaning condenser microphone diaphragms. I have decided to retire the local
copy of that article, because it seems to inspire too many to attempt things
that are unwise.

One thing left out of the original article is this: cleaning should only be
done if the microphone fails to work otherwise. The difference caused by a
little extra weight may be audible, but not huge. Got that? No cleaning unless
it *doesn't work.* And in no case should you use any source of heat near the
microphone. Someone thought that what we wrote suggested putting steam on the
microphone diaphragm. !!?! ...  the steam is to put a slight amount of pure
water on your cleaning brush, not the diaphragm! No heat anywhere near
diaphragm, OK?

With all due respect to others in the field, if the conductive layer on
the diaphragm is so fragile that gentle cleaning with distilled water, alcohol
and cotton or a slightly damp fine brush damages it, you have no business
cleaning it. That said, losing a small amount of metallization has little or
no effect -- the diaphragm will still behave as it did before, the
active area is just reduced a little. A real hazard, however, is that the
capsule will become contaminated internally with whatever the cleaning medium
carries with it, and will forever be noisy. This is particularly a problem with
older PVC diaphragms that have cracks. Unless you have a way to test for
ionic contamination of the surface and resulting leakage resistance of the
capsule, don't try it.

If any Josephson microphone appears to need cleaning, please send it back to
the factory in California. The cost is minimal and you can be sure of original
performance when it's done."
 
i was able to clean the capsule enough to get it working again!!! since it's double sided, I rotated it 180 degrees after the cleaning so the back is now the front. client is happy as hell to not have to shell out for an expensive replacement capsule that's basically the same price as the mic sells for used.

THANKS TO EVERYONE FOR THEIR INPUT!
 
I have an AT 4050 that has developed a noisy capsule. The replacement from the manufacturer is almost the same as the cost of buying another mic used.

Does anyone know of an alternate aftermarket replacement that might work? This is not the standard size of LDC capsule, it's about 1/2" diameter. I know it will alter the sound but I'm mainly looking to get it working again without having to shell out tons of $.

Hi everyone,
I also have an AT4050 capsule that I need to replace, cost of a replacement from AT is really expensive, and client doesn't want to spend that much, he prefers a cheaper aftermarket capsule.
In this case is not a matter of cleaning, the diaphragm is torn.
Also I don't advise trying to clean this capsule because it's not open like LDC capsules, on top of the diaphragm there's a resonator disk covering it so you can't really clean the diaphragm well.

Screen Shot 2021-12-23 at 06.45.19.png


I tried connecting to the circuit a single diaphragm K87 style capsule and it didn't work, no sound, just noise.

Does anyone knows what generic or common capsule could work in this circuit?
 
Hi everyone,
I also have an AT4050 capsule that I need to replace, cost of a replacement from AT is really expensive, and client doesn't want to spend that much, he prefers a cheaper aftermarket capsule.
In this case is not a matter of cleaning, the diaphragm is torn.
Also I don't advise trying to clean this capsule because it's not open like LDC capsules, on top of the diaphragm there's a resonator disk covering it so you can't really clean the diaphragm well.

View attachment 87606


I tried connecting to the circuit a single diaphragm K87 style capsule and it didn't work, no sound, just noise.

Does anyone knows what generic or common capsule could work in this circuit?

Hi, did you find an answer to this? I'm looking to upgrade the capsule on an AE5400 to something better from https://microphone-parts.com/collections/capsules, and as the AE5400 uses the same capsule as the AT4050, I'd be extremely interested to hear which type worked for you in the end!
 
I did, they're not having any of it, they steadfastly believe LDCs are *not for use on stage*... despite the obvious example that such a product already exists (i.e. the AE5400)...

I can quote the entire convo if you like:

//

Me:


Hi,

Call me crazy if you like.
But do you think it might be possible for me to mount one of your LDC capsules/kits pointing upward in a mic body, so as to act like a normal vertically-orientated cardioid microphone, specifically with stage use in mind?
As per the KMS105, or (a better example) the Audio Technica AE5400, which simply uses the capsule from Audio Technica's 4050 studio mic - but is itself intended for stage use?

The reason I ask is this:
I sing (/).
And as you can hear, my voice is loud/deep/full (Oktavist-ish), and very hard to get mics to pleasingly represent (see e.g. the rest of my recordings, which are terrible).

I considered SDCs at one point, but prefer the sound of LDCs.
If I used IEMs, turned off stage monitors, and perhaps added some form of acoustic shielding to the back and sides of the capsule inside, do you think I could somehow get this to work - whether in your case, or a custom 3D printed plastic one?
Or is there some fundamental reason why your capsules aren't usable on stage, but the 105 and 5400 and e.g. KSM9 are?

Thanks in advance,
Cameron


(With my regards to whoever helped the guy in 'Where Does The Tone Come From In A Microphone' [], without whose remarkable comparison test (PopCan vs U67) I wouldn't be here!)

Sent from my Galaxy

P.S.

Sorry, it was a Telefunken 251 in his video, but you knew what I meant haha.

C


Them:


We’re familiar with the Jim Lill video. I think he overstates the case. I mean, we’re psyched that he loves our capsules, but his audio samples had very limited bandwidth, not much expression, and were short. We’re quite sure the circuit and the housing make a bigger difference than he suggests.

Anyway, the short answer is no, there’s no easy to mount a capsule as you suggest. Even if you fabricated such a mount, the mic would probably feed back horribly. Designing a stage vocal mic is a bigger challenge than simply rotating the capsule in a studio condenser.


Me:


Hi, thanks for your reply.

Haha I thought you might be. Yes, there are limitations to the video definitely, including the obvious fact that he's playing back a sample through a dynamic speaker, and putting the result on YouTube through its own compression. So time domain similarities can perhaps be disregarded, as the condensers could only hear as fast as the dynamic speaker could play, but you must admit the tone similarities between your kit and the vintage condenser (and his kit with your capsule and the fancy condenser) are remarkable. They're not identical, especially on the first sample, but *hot damn* they're close. Especially considering the massive, measurable differences between multiple examples of the same microphone model, each of which sounds and graphs wildly differently, with much more variation than there is between your circuits, or your capsule in his pop can and the vintage condenser!

Anyway, the more compelling/relevant test to me was the bit at the very end anyway, with the acoustic guitar, which sounded really rather nice through your capsule in his mic. I've just double-checked through my Stax electrostatics, so I'm not listening through dynamics and he's not playing through one either, though obviously various things could have happened in between. I really like the sound though (full, and detailed, but still sweet and not grating), and that's a compliment/testament to you - imagine how the original condenser company must feel!

Re. Stage use, surely there must be a way to do it (don't call me Shirley haha). First of all, small diaphragm condensers are routinely used, though from I've heard they may be less sensitive - perhaps due to being this electret type which even i headphones is supposed to not be as good. Fragility is one concern too, though they're surely not as fragile as ribbons, and anyway if I break it - it's on me.

So is pad use a workaround for the sensitivity? Many even fancy studio condensers seem to have e.g. -10dB/-20dB pads, which from what I gather is just a separate circuit with less gain? Is there a tone disadvantage to this? Presumably not, because it's just giving it the same starting voltage, but amplifying the resulting signal less?

As mentioned, the main reason I think it must be possible is the existence of e.g. the Audio Technica AE5400. Maybe i just need to buy one of those, and either use it, or do something similar to Jim - i.e. use its circuit, with your capsule. Are these things all the same voltage etc?

Yours annoyingly 🙃
C ❤


Them:


> Re. Stage use, surely there must be a way to do it

There is a way to build a large-diaphragm end-address stage mic. We do not have a kit for that.

> small diaphragm condensers are routinely used, though from I've heard they may be less sensitive

That’s a design choice. One of the ways to combat feedback is to reduce the mic’s sensitivity.

The problems you’d have to overcome to build an LDC stage mic:
1- attenuating the naturally very high sensitivity
2- plosive protection
3- dual diaphragm LDC capsules tend to have poor pattern control, meaning they’re omni at low frequencies, so you’ll have massive feedback issues with floor monitors. You’d need a true single-diaphragm capsule.
4- handling noise
5- fragility

That’s just off the top of my head. Basically, it’s a terrible idea, which is why nobody does it. LDCs offer no advantages (within the context of stage vocals) and several significant disadvantages as compared to smaller condenser capsules or dynamic cartridges.


Me:


> attenuating the naturally very high sensitivity
Circuit from an AE5400, or post-mic XLR male to female PAD?

> plosive protection
Multiple layers of increasingly fine mesh, as per KMS105?
So either DIY mesh, or salvaged KMS105 or AE5400 body/head?
Anyway, why are plosives more of a problem on stage?
Surely they're also a problem in studio, and don't prevent LDCs?
Or is it because one is jumping around/breathing more heavily?
I know I often see pop screens used in studio, but not always.
Great mic technique (singing at an angle to/above the mic)?

> dual diaphragm LDC capsules tend to have poor pattern control, meaning they’re omni at low frequencies, so you’ll have massive feedback issues with floor monitors. You’d need a true single-diaphragm capsule.
Yes, bass is inherently omni, and it presumably picks it up.
What if one were to not use stage monitors (IEMs only)?
Or to cut out the mylar film from one side of the capsule?
Again, what does the AE5400 do about this problem?
Omni dynamics have been used on big stages, e.g. Elvis' RE15.
(He may have liked it due to the omni lack of proximity effect.)
Perhaps they're incomparably less sensitive/feedback prone.

> handling noise
Yes, though this can happen with even dynamics with bad paint.
E.g. KMS8, - from 1:55 to 2:15.
And SDCs, e.g. KMS105 - - 8:38.
How does the AE5400 handle this, I wonder once again?
Also do they really have much more than an SDC inherently?
Is this just because they're inherently better at picking up bass?
In the second link he 'solves' the KSM8 problem with high-pass.
But that 61-100hz is exactly what I want to keep with my voice.
Which is part of why I'm interested in LDC over SDC anyway.
In addition to the fuller/more natural/less robotic sound overall.

> fragility
Yes.
But I'm reminded of him stabbing the capsule in the video haha.
So they're more resilient than I for one realised.
And anyway, again - AE5400.

The reason I'm still interested in it though, despite the above challenges, is purely because of how much better they sound. See e.g. again. The Neumann just sounds desperately tinny to me, by comparison, though it's not helped by the weird EQ boosting they do (maybe people need this when they don't have as much low end as I do? [/] I just clip the bass end immediately when using anything boosted, e.g. SM58 with proximity). Even on a flat one though, like this, ,, or - less flat, but good demonstration) it's still incomparable. I mean I'm preaching to the choir anyway, surely, you make these things haha - you must prefer them to SDCs. I completely understand your concerns, but I just wonder whether it might be fun/possible to try. On a scale of easy to hard it goes from swapping out the capsule on an AE5400 with one of yours, to designing a new circuit with the same design as the AE5400 but better chips, to designing a whole new circuit from scratch haha 😄

I mean maybe I can achieve the distortion (which some say is its only advantage over an SDC) of an LDC more effectively with an SDC + valve preamp (I've just bought an ART StudioV3, but it's not enough by itself), or a virtual effect of some kind, but where's the fun in that haha? I, like most musicians, am a soppy old romantic for getting the 'real deal' and not some electronic (or electromechanical) simulation thereof, if at all possible.

As the following short hilariously takes to the extreme, an impressive amount can indeed be done with EQ/effects/chain etc, but still, there must be a point to LDCs... right?



Much love ❤
C 😁


Them:

[no response]


//


I can try emailing them again just asking 'theoretically' what one would use if replacing the capsule on an AT4050 I guess, just to save them being triggered, because supposedly it uses the same capsule as the AE5400.

I do understand the concerns about LDCs on stage.

But I still want to try haha.

P.S.

My IG is the same as my username, and my voice on there makes it clear why (goes down to C2/65hz, but with lots of higher harmonics, and I like the full spectrum clear sound of condensers - and want the warmth/distortion/not-metallic-robotic-ness of an LDC. I've bought a second-hand little Valve preamp (Presonus TubePre V2), which definitely helps add a bit of that pleasant distortion, but I wonder a) whether it's as nice a sound as an LDC and b) whether it distorts in an unhelpful way too.
 
Did you reach out to Matt at micparts.com? He will be helpful, I’m sure.
See my reply above. I may have been too arrogant in my emails to them, though I tried not to be. But they definitely are 99% against the idea.

I could still email obliquely asking for which capsule they'd use on an AT4050 as mentioned.

C
 
See my reply above. I may have been too arrogant in my emails to them, though I tried not to be. But they definitely are 99% against the idea.

I could still email obliquely asking for which capsule they'd use on an AT4050 as mentioned.

C
Update: I've emailed them the following, and I'll see if they reply.

Hi,

To ask another way, if I had an AT4050 studio LDC (the capsule for which happens to also be used in the AE5400 stage LDC), which capsule of yours could I use to replace the one it came with?

i.e. Are any of your capsules compatible with the AT4050, and if so which please?

Someone I know actually has a broken-capsuled AT4050 so he'd like to know too.

Thanks,
Cameron
 
Wow! A lot of stuff here. So I take it you are not a mike designer. But you seem to think you know more than real mike designers. You can use any kind of mike on a live stage, depending what you use it on. But some mikes work better on some sources. I am surprised you find the KSM105 tinny. Neumann know how to design mikes, and when I have used the KSMs live they have been great. But often the vocalist wants lots of gain on monitors, and when they do, something has to go. So you need to try the accepted solution mikes for vocals, and find one that sounds good with your voice. But you need to listen to designers. They have spent many hours coming to their conclusions. They do know more about it than you.
 

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