pucho812
Well-known member
Anyone here doing anything in atmos?
Atmos
- Thread starter pucho812
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I have installed 6 atmos systems now. Two theatre systems with 47 speakers, one smaller post system & three music producers systems.
My room is too small to install height speakers in a correct way; but I have experimentally connected two height speakers once, very impressive.
I see a high fun factor in these multichannel processes.
Nuendo has a built-in Dolby Atmos renderer which allows interesting experiments. The more interesting part is actually the headphone playback of Atmos/multichannel processes. There are renderers like DearVR. My first impression was not so convincing, but then I got the opportunity to get a temporary genelec Aural ID license. With these quite good personal HRTF, realistic headphone rendering seems to me to be within reach. But one will have to train one's hearing on a real Atmos capable LSsystem. In summary: Multi-channel or object audio methods are fun, but cost a little.
I see a high fun factor in these multichannel processes.
Nuendo has a built-in Dolby Atmos renderer which allows interesting experiments. The more interesting part is actually the headphone playback of Atmos/multichannel processes. There are renderers like DearVR. My first impression was not so convincing, but then I got the opportunity to get a temporary genelec Aural ID license. With these quite good personal HRTF, realistic headphone rendering seems to me to be within reach. But one will have to train one's hearing on a real Atmos capable LSsystem. In summary: Multi-channel or object audio methods are fun, but cost a little.
I'm not sure if this counts but I finally resolved a dolby surround sound issues for my home system. I have a 6 speaker system set up for movie viewing. I was getting good surround quality using the SPDIF toslink feed from my direct TV receiver into a cheap chinese surround decoder. BUT the SPDIF digital audio coming from my cheap ONN TV flatscreen monitor with built in ROKU only put out stereo audio even when streaming movies encoded with dolby sound.
I finally fixed that by adding a stand alone ROKU box and using another chinese gadget to extract SPDIF from the ROKU HDMI output... Now I get decent dolby surround while streaming movies. I have been messing with surround sound since selling dolby surround audio decoder kits back in the 70s/80s. Back then the surround technology was based on using BBD delay (L-R+delay). Digital technology has made modern stuff far more complex.
JR
I finally fixed that by adding a stand alone ROKU box and using another chinese gadget to extract SPDIF from the ROKU HDMI output... Now I get decent dolby surround while streaming movies. I have been messing with surround sound since selling dolby surround audio decoder kits back in the 70s/80s. Back then the surround technology was based on using BBD delay (L-R+delay). Digital technology has made modern stuff far more complex.
JR
Electrobumps
Well-known member
The format is clever. The problem is most people don't know what it actually does or how it works and that includes a lot of the industry. My wife is a manager and I asked her about it recently and she thought it only worked on headphones. Another manager I was talking to didn't get why someone wanted one of his acts to be mixed in the format and if it would be worth the cost.
My home cinema system is Atmos and I've listened a few times and some music is great and other stuff sounds terrible. When I listen to music casually I don't have time to sit in a listening position and the general public is the same or just doesn't care.
A lot of streaming services don't support it, but if they did then maybe it will take off and It would be on headphones, which is where most people listen to Atmos.
The one thing going for Atmos is that it is an industry standard in film. So the format won't die on its arse like laser disc or SACD.
It needs full adoption across all streaming services and a big marketing campaign on Atmos ready headphones.
My home cinema system is Atmos and I've listened a few times and some music is great and other stuff sounds terrible. When I listen to music casually I don't have time to sit in a listening position and the general public is the same or just doesn't care.
A lot of streaming services don't support it, but if they did then maybe it will take off and It would be on headphones, which is where most people listen to Atmos.
The one thing going for Atmos is that it is an industry standard in film. So the format won't die on its arse like laser disc or SACD.
It needs full adoption across all streaming services and a big marketing campaign on Atmos ready headphones.
I don't watch movies for the soundtrack but I was recently surprised by a cameron crowe movie "Elizabethtown". I had seen the movie years ago and it was pretty much a yawn, but recently watching with good surround sound, it did not suck.
I need to re-watch "almost famous" with the sound cranked. I suspect it has a decent sound design too.
===
Like I've said before I have been aware of dolby surround for over half a century and I don't think the public knows or cares. The public thinks an add-on sound bar is good TV sound.
JR
I need to re-watch "almost famous" with the sound cranked. I suspect it has a decent sound design too.
===
Like I've said before I have been aware of dolby surround for over half a century and I don't think the public knows or cares. The public thinks an add-on sound bar is good TV sound.
JR
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Electrobumps
Well-known member
Agreed, It makes sense in film as you have a captive audience sat in one place.Like I've said before I have been aware of dolby surround for over half a century and I don't think the public knows or cares. The public thinks an add-on sound bar is good TV sound.
JR
However it can experienced on headphones which is not the case with previous surround formats.
I'd be interested to hear the stereo mix vs Atmos mix on stereo speakers and see how that compares.
I’ve mixed several pop singles and some big band stuff in Atmos this year. I also did some room calibration at Capitol Studio C (Atmos remix room) before they shut down for a couple years for earthquake retrofit renovations. I’ve also authored several articles about immersive mixing over the past year or so.
I’ve also helped a few studios around L.A. install and treat Atmos (9.1.4 or 7.1.4) setups over the past two years, so people seem to have bought into the business model of supporting Atmos.
Mixing in Atmos is fun, but I’m not sold on its longevity- like past surround formats.
Too bad you can only stream and not purchase Atmos music. Such a hassle to integrate an Atmos streaming player into a home setup, too.
I’ve also helped a few studios around L.A. install and treat Atmos (9.1.4 or 7.1.4) setups over the past two years, so people seem to have bought into the business model of supporting Atmos.
Mixing in Atmos is fun, but I’m not sold on its longevity- like past surround formats.
Too bad you can only stream and not purchase Atmos music. Such a hassle to integrate an Atmos streaming player into a home setup, too.
Smart speakers are pretty easily set up to perform as an Atmos environment, which may help normalize the format. Lots of new cars also have Atmos playback systems.
ubxf
Well-known member
i have a 7.1.4 mix set up. Originally dedicated to post but now i'm doing electronic music mixes that take full advantage of the format and it is quite fun.
Electrobumps
Well-known member
Kags question regarding mixing.....are you mixing atmos from stems of the stereo mix. Or multitrack to Atmos and letting Atmos take care of your stereo?
No surround music format has ever taken off. All the way back to quadraphonic. The big difference with Atmos is the system is adaptive to the playback device and relatively cheap and easy to make playback devices Atmos ready. Every other format has required a very specific setup.
It makes sense for cars, headphones home cinema amps, smart speakers all to be atmos ready as they are or can be used for streaming movies and atmos is standard in the film industry.
No surround music format has ever taken off. All the way back to quadraphonic. The big difference with Atmos is the system is adaptive to the playback device and relatively cheap and easy to make playback devices Atmos ready. Every other format has required a very specific setup.
It makes sense for cars, headphones home cinema amps, smart speakers all to be atmos ready as they are or can be used for streaming movies and atmos is standard in the film industry.
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Hey Electrobumps - Unfortunately the stereo downmix from an Atmos mix is kinda weird, so nobody is using that. I wish it came out well - it would save tons of time!
For records that I mix the stereo and Atmos versions, I mix both from the original tracks. I've been toying with the idea of printing a "bed" from the stereo mix of the elements that get the most bus compression because in Atmos bus compression is a little tricky. If I'm creating Atmos versions of songs for which the stereo mix already exists, it's a mix of stems and full mix sessions that I work from. I prefer the mix session so that I can distribute objects the way I want, but I also appreciate having stems so that the fundamental mix decisions are "glued in place."
Ultimately, I want to stay true to the stereo mix and add depth and maybe one or two special moments in the Atmos mix, unless the producer wants to really do something extreme with the Atmos version as an alternate to a stereo mix. Since we have to assume that like 95% of listeners will hear the Atmos version on headphones/earbuds, the Atmos mix for most music should really be a slightly expanded version of the stereo mix. That said, even "gentle" Atmos mixes can create a stunning amount of depth to a mix. If you have a chance, listen to the Miles Davis Kind of Blue Atmos version and compare it to the stereo version. They sound very similar, but when you switch from the Atmos version to the stereo version the sense of space (not reverb, but spacial presence) goes away. The music goes from "in the room" to "in the speakers."
So many top 40 Atmos mixes just sound like the stereo mix with extra reverb. The major labels don't get to sell the Atmos versions as a new master, so they aren't putting time and money into creating the Atmos versions for most records. They are having mixers create dozens of Atmos versions each week from stems of catalog multitracks. Sometimes it's great, sometimes not so much. I find it challenging to get a minimal additional budget to add Atmos versions to the songs that I mix or produce for major labels, let alone indie projects.
For records that I mix the stereo and Atmos versions, I mix both from the original tracks. I've been toying with the idea of printing a "bed" from the stereo mix of the elements that get the most bus compression because in Atmos bus compression is a little tricky. If I'm creating Atmos versions of songs for which the stereo mix already exists, it's a mix of stems and full mix sessions that I work from. I prefer the mix session so that I can distribute objects the way I want, but I also appreciate having stems so that the fundamental mix decisions are "glued in place."
Ultimately, I want to stay true to the stereo mix and add depth and maybe one or two special moments in the Atmos mix, unless the producer wants to really do something extreme with the Atmos version as an alternate to a stereo mix. Since we have to assume that like 95% of listeners will hear the Atmos version on headphones/earbuds, the Atmos mix for most music should really be a slightly expanded version of the stereo mix. That said, even "gentle" Atmos mixes can create a stunning amount of depth to a mix. If you have a chance, listen to the Miles Davis Kind of Blue Atmos version and compare it to the stereo version. They sound very similar, but when you switch from the Atmos version to the stereo version the sense of space (not reverb, but spacial presence) goes away. The music goes from "in the room" to "in the speakers."
So many top 40 Atmos mixes just sound like the stereo mix with extra reverb. The major labels don't get to sell the Atmos versions as a new master, so they aren't putting time and money into creating the Atmos versions for most records. They are having mixers create dozens of Atmos versions each week from stems of catalog multitracks. Sometimes it's great, sometimes not so much. I find it challenging to get a minimal additional budget to add Atmos versions to the songs that I mix or produce for major labels, let alone indie projects.
Does anyone know if any "Atmos-ready" headphones are out or being developed? I think the gaming industry will bring that to market before music/film will, but if/when that happens, the Atmos world will open wide.
Not really sure that's true. I installed a music atmos system for a friend about 2 years ago who is snowed under remixing content for some very big artists because apple insist on atmos versions too. I am pretty sure one of the other streaming services is doing that too. My understanding is something along the lines of they won't promote one's music in the same way if and atmos mix is unavailable.
Electrobumps
Well-known member
Yes actually that statement wasn't correct. I didn't realise Amazon supported Atmos! Spotify don't support Atmos yet.
I guess apple are demanding mixes based on something new and "better" to market and need the content and not necessarily based on consumer demand. They are all fighting to get as much market share as possible.
It also helps Apple sell beats headphones and apple ear buds. Which will automatically switch between Atmos and stereo as a default setting in Apple Music.
It's true that almost everyone except Spotify support Atmos and/or Sony 360 RA. Spotify doesn't even support lossless streaming yet (but they claim they plan to).
Apple's playback of Atmos strips the binaural data from the stream and replaces it with something Apple calls Spatial Audio. In reality, it's impossible to know how your audience will hear an Atmos mix - could be on headphones with binaural info, without binaural info, or on some kind of speaker system that can range from a soundbar to a full-blown Atmos home theater. I've worked a bit with some labels on a method to ensure that artists/producers/management will listen to an Atmos mix on a standardized playback system so that any mix notes will translate in some meaningful way.
I have a full-page document that I send to anyone for whom I mix Atmos music that explains how to listen to the mix in a way that will translate OK. Still, it's difficult to create a mix that sounds similar on speakers, binaural headphones, and Apple Spatial.
It's correct that streaming platforms provide "free" promotion for songs that have Atmos versions due mainly to the fact that the amount of Atmos content is limited right now. There is even a rumor that Apple has helped labels fund the mixing fees for creating Atmos mixes for popular catalog songs. As mentioned before, the labels don't make extra money for having an Atmos mix so they mostly aren't willing to pay a reasonable rate for the additional Atmos mix delivery. That leads to sub-par Atmos versions created by a different mixer than the stereo mix.
Messy situation all around. I love the format, but I'm skeptical of its importance for the short term.
Apple's playback of Atmos strips the binaural data from the stream and replaces it with something Apple calls Spatial Audio. In reality, it's impossible to know how your audience will hear an Atmos mix - could be on headphones with binaural info, without binaural info, or on some kind of speaker system that can range from a soundbar to a full-blown Atmos home theater. I've worked a bit with some labels on a method to ensure that artists/producers/management will listen to an Atmos mix on a standardized playback system so that any mix notes will translate in some meaningful way.
I have a full-page document that I send to anyone for whom I mix Atmos music that explains how to listen to the mix in a way that will translate OK. Still, it's difficult to create a mix that sounds similar on speakers, binaural headphones, and Apple Spatial.
It's correct that streaming platforms provide "free" promotion for songs that have Atmos versions due mainly to the fact that the amount of Atmos content is limited right now. There is even a rumor that Apple has helped labels fund the mixing fees for creating Atmos mixes for popular catalog songs. As mentioned before, the labels don't make extra money for having an Atmos mix so they mostly aren't willing to pay a reasonable rate for the additional Atmos mix delivery. That leads to sub-par Atmos versions created by a different mixer than the stereo mix.
Messy situation all around. I love the format, but I'm skeptical of its importance for the short term.
