Behringer SMD-ROHS-junk pot replacements

[Kingston]

I'm twiddling with and admiring this old Behringer EX3200 Ultrafex enhancer. It's a very solid piece of German engineering with great internal layout and design in general. I am positively surprised. Its design choices stand with the best of modern studio electronics.

There's one horrible flaw  - a complete deal breaker - possibly the source of all bad reputation Behringer has. The pots are absolute complete sh*t-piece in all ways thinkable. They get scratchy before you have a chance to fire up the unit out of the box. Not only that, they decided on a 21-detent tactile version. Guess what happens AT EACH AND EVERY ONE of those detents ON ALL OF THE POTS after some years of solid use? Instead of tactile click you get an actual audible scratch-click. The pots actually lose their contact material on those detents. It gets scraped off. At worst it's a non contact at or near a detent.

Anyway, I managed to find a bulk non-detent version of 10kB and 10kA pots at mouser.
Mouser Part No: 652-PTV09A-4020FB103
Mouser Part No: 688-RK09D1130009
etc. There's a surprising amount of choice.

Would anyone here happen to know where to find the same form factor 1kA (modern dictation, ie. audio/log taper) and dual 10kC (rev log)?

[edit]

Turns out apparently this unit was made in china.

 

[analogguru]

I'm twiddling with and admiring this old Behringer EX3200 Ultrafex enhancer.

EX3200 is an Ultrafex Pro Enhancer.

.... It's a very solid piece of German engineering.....

Everything with "Pro" or "Pro XL" is chinese SMD-ROHS-"junk" and not one of the old german build units.

.....with great internal layout and design in general. I am positively surprised. Its design choices stand with the best of modern studio electronics.

You really must love one double-sided-smd-pcb behind the front-panel and one at the backside for the jacks with some interconnection wires.

Anyhow, good luck finding the pots and repairing the unit.....

 

[Kingston]

Hah, interesting. So only designed in Germany then. Everything except the pots are solid engineering, PCB's included. Their spec sheet is being very modest, I think maybe due to the fact  their spec-measurement suite didn't quite reach as far as the actual unit-under-test. For example noise and distortion didn't budge my RMAA test loop (RME HDSP I/O). It seems this unit is better than my AD/DA. Stock.

You really must love one double-sided-smd-pcb behind the front-panel and one at the backside for the jacks with some interconnection wires.

But they are all modular. Very easy to detach. I have no issues whatsoever with a design being mostly or even all SMD. I would never call anything junk just because it's SMD-ROHS. That kind of talk is like grandpa whining about the good old days again, not understanding things have changed, mostly for the better.

Anyway, whoever engineer is responsible for the decision to use these abhorrent detented pots should be burned at a stake!

Imagine how different it would have been for Behringer had they decided to invest in their front end parts just slightly more. What's the absolute first thing the end user will ever touch, and what's the absolute first thing to break? There is no worse combination, and now they have a massive industry brand defined by this very choice!

 

[analogguru]

Hah, interesting. So only designed in Germany then.

I even doubt that.... 

Everything except the pots are solid engineering, PCB's included. Their spec sheet is being very modest, I think maybe due to the fact  their spec-measurement suite didn't quite reach as far as the actual unit-under-test. For example noise and distortion didn't budge my RMAA test loop (RME HDSP I/O). It seems this unit is better than my AD/DA. Stock.

You really must love one double-sided-smd-pcb behind the front-panel and one at the backside for the jacks with some interconnection wires.

But they are all modular. Very easy to detach. I have no issues whatsoever with a design being mostly or even all SMD. I would never call anything junk just because it's SMD-ROHS.

First of all, one can say the non-"Pro" and non-"Pro-XL" are a reasonable quality (and worth to repair).  The bad name of Behringer was only created (already then) by the snobs who didn´t want that the value of the money they had invested in "Drawmer" et al goes to zero.

Second, it´s nice that it is modular this makes it more easy to exchange the whole pcb in manufacturing/warranty service.

Third I CALL IT JUNK cause of the lead-free ("RoHS") solder.  If you don´t believe it then try to repair e.g. a Behringer mixer (in a reasonable time). It is nearly impossible to disassemble a chip, potentiometer without destroying something.

And if it is nearly impossible to repair it, then it is JUNK - you have to throw it away.  Especially when you can buy the same unit used and working for less than € 30,--, it is not worth to even disassemble the unit, for this money.  Better throw it away when there is a fault. So it is JUNK, IMHO.  And this is IMHO - intentionally - caused by the ROHS-lead-free-mafia-industry.

That kind of talk is like grandpa whining about the good old days again, not understanding things have changed, mostly for the better.

Let´s talk again about this after you have repaired 10 Behringer mixers.

Anyway, whoever engineer is responsible for the decision to use these abhorrent detented pots should be burned at a stake!

Why ?  The decision was made very well.  The pots will survive the warranty time and then you should buy a new unit - it is not intended that you repair anything.

Imagine how different it would have been for Behringer had they decided to invest in their front end parts just slightly more. What's the absolute first thing the end user will ever touch, and what's the absolute first thing to break? There is no worse combination, and now they have a massive industry brand defined by this very choice!

But people buy them still .... in masses..... and throw them away.... and buy a new one....

I don´t have any concerns about the profit of Behringer (and their dealers).

 

[Andy Peters]

Third I CALL IT JUNK cause of the lead-free ("RoHS") solder.  If you don´t believe it then try to repair e.g. a Behringer mixer (in a reasonable time). It is nearly impossible to disassemble a chip, potentiometer without destroying something.

Ummm, settle down. The small company for which I work the day job is in the business of designing and manufacturing very expensive scientific cameras, all of which have used lead-free solder for at least the nine and a half years I've been there. Lead-free solder and SMD parts is simply not a problem. It's not a problem for industry in general. Really.

And believe me, it's not at all difficult to remove a part that was attached with lead-free solder. Maybe you need new tools and techniques?

Look, I've seen shitty soldering jobs on non-RoHS gear from back in the day, and I've seen excellent work done on modern gear with an all-RoHS assembly flow.

-a

 

[Kingston]

I should add this isn't the first lead free smd project i've meddled. All the pots and electrolytics came off as expected and i am using plain old solder wick. I've managed to break some opamp soic-8 pcb prints in the past but that was due to applying excessive force or not removing all the solder - there certaily is the right technique to this. That said i've had far more trouble with bad through-hole vias that seem to rip out with certain pcb processes.

Also, the behringer dual side pcb layout was perfectly logical with smd on one side and through-hole on the other. The mechanical design blending to them was especially clever. There is also a significant attempt at design reusability. Basically everything but the front panel/pcb module. As the icing there is service diagnostics interface when you pop off the top panel if you know where to look.

As someone who does architecture on another field i appreciate these kind of design decisions.

Financial considerations didn't cross my mind. It's not like i have to watch an hourly rate monkeying about and studying this thing. Maybe i would feel different if i did.

 

[JohnRoberts]

I should add this isn't the first lead free smd project i've meddled. All the pots and electrolytics came off as expected and i am using plain old solder wick. I've managed to break some opamp soic-8 pcb prints in the past but that was due to applying excessive force or not removing all the solder - there certaily is the right technique to this. That said i've had far more trouble with bad through-hole vias that seem to rip out with certain pcb processes.

Like Andy suggested are you using proper tools (hot air station)?

I have also seen a few chinese PCB with sub standard copper adhesion where pads and traces would lift if you looked at them hard. 

Also, the behringer dual side pcb layout was perfectly logical with smd on one side and through-hole on the other. The mechanical design blending to them was especially clever. There is also a significant attempt at design reusability. Basically everything but the front panel/pcb module. As the icing there is service diagnostics interface when you pop off the top panel if you know where to look.

Not to discount Behringer's creativity (well maybe a little), the blending of SMD and through hole was anticipated by the SMD technology developers.  At Peavey we were putting SMD on the solder side of single sided PCB almost 20 years ago. This made very cost effective value mixer products with all the thru hole pots and jacks on one side, electronics on the other.  An unexpected benefit from mixed technology is that the high gain circuitry layouts could be made tighter using SMD reducing loop area and subsequent noise pickup.  In some cases the preamps were located right beneath the jacks. 

As someone who does architecture on another field i appreciate these kind of design decisions.

Financial considerations didn't cross my mind. It's not like i have to watch an hourly rate monkeying about and studying this thing. Maybe i would feel different if i did.

When I was active designing value products we routinely studied competitors packaging and manufacturing techniques to avoid giving up any cost advantage. I don't recall spending much time looking at Behringer products because they were generally "inspired" by other company's design work. Photos I've seen posted in the WWW when other people opened up high profile products reinforced that conclusion. I will concede that in recent years, Behringer has run out of products to copy so have had to do some original work. 

JR

 

[Kingston]

Like Andy suggested are you using proper tools (hot air station)?

Most definitely not. The point was I get by with measly solder wick (the better stuff with flux). I expect this would be a breeze with any modern tools and hence I have no ROHS related complaints.

I don't recall spending much time looking at Behringer products because they were generally "inspired" by other company's design work.

That's exactly what I have been taught, too. But this particular phase of their product design seems quite original. Also this particular tool/toy isn't a direct copy of anything. I will post some pictures of the internals later on when I'm done with these pots. I'm quite fond of what they have done here, certainly inspired me. Especially the re-usability mind set. Design some proven set of PSU and I/O to interface with your entire product line internals. Simple but effective.

This is late nineties, by the way, quite obvious looking at the mixed SMD/through hole form factor.

[edit]

I stand to be corrected with what's (what was) out there but I haven't exactly seen any high profile products/designs quite like this before.

 

[Andy Peters]

I should add this isn't the first lead free smd project i've meddled. All the pots and electrolytics came off as expected and i am using plain old solder wick. I've managed to break some opamp soic-8 pcb prints in the past but that was due to applying excessive force or not removing all the solder - there certaily is the right technique to this. That said i've had far more trouble with bad through-hole vias that seem to rip out with certain pcb processes.

Actually, the equipment for professional rework really hasn't changed with the advent of RoHS and lead-free parts. You always needed a proper temperature-controlled soldering iron, you always needed the hot air, you always needed flux.

Also, the behringer dual side pcb layout was perfectly logical with smd on one side and through-hole on the other.

I assume you're talking about the front-panel user interface PCB. There's another reason for the "SMD on the back, THT on the front." I assume that it's all ICs on the back and the pots and such on the front. By putting the ICs on the back, you ensure that the airflow around them isn't greatly constricted, at least to the extent that there's any airflow in the box.

 

[JohnRoberts]

Like Andy suggested are you using proper tools (hot air station)?

Most definitely not. The point was I get by with measly solder wick (the better stuff with flux). I expect this would be a breeze with any modern tools and hence I have no ROHS related complaints.

I managed up until a few years ago with old school soldering irons, but finally broke down and got proper tools. It makes a difference.

I don't recall spending much time looking at Behringer products because they were generally "inspired" by other company's design work.

That's exactly what I have been taught, too.

I was taught that by competing against them and seeing my designs copied. 

But this particular phase of their product design seems quite original. Also this particular tool/toy isn't a direct copy of anything. I will post some pictures of the internals later on when I'm done with these pots. I'm quite fond of what they have done here, certainly inspired me. Especially the re-usability mind set. Design some proven set of PSU and I/O to interface with your entire product line internals. Simple but effective.

I'm happy for both of you.

This is late nineties, by the way, quite obvious looking at the mixed SMD/through hole form factor.

[edit]

I stand to be corrected with what's (what was) out there but I haven't exactly seen any high profile products/designs quite like this before.

High profile (i.e. high cost) brands are late adopters of cost effective technology. Behringer built that house on being low price in the market so have  been aggressive about manufacturing costs.

JR

PS: sorry if I sound a little angry. I am,,, but I'll get over it. It's old news, and I am no longer in those trenches doing hand to hand combat.