Beware of experts

[DaveP]

If I wanted to build an extension on my house, I would need planning permission, building regulation approval and several stage inspections.

Yet if you build a tower block for hundreds of people to live in...............................

You can get away with one staircase

You don't need a sprinkler system

You don't even need a fire alarm apparently

You can clad the walls with a polyethylene sandwich

There's common sense and there is sh*t for brains experts.....

WTF



DaveP

 

[fazer]

That's an unbelievable blaze.  This is a very sad event.  Yes beware of experts.

The foam panels are very flammable and are pushed for insulation qualities. 

There is a house in my neighborhood that is built with foam blocks and covered with latex stucco.  Hope it never catches on fire.  It will be burnt to the ground in 20 minutes.   

 

[abbey road d enfer]

I'm not sure experts are the cause. These tenements have been built under so much political pressure no negative comment has been allowed to emerge.

 

[DaveP]

The tower was built in 1974 but the inflammable cladding was only put on last year.

Go figure..........

DaveP

 

[abbey road d enfer]

The tower was built in 1974 but the inflammable cladding was only put on last year.

Go figure..........

DaveP

Wasn't it supposed to be a temporary thing, during the refurb?

 

[DaveP]

No, it was to make it look better

DaveP

 

[pucho812]

tragic events.

I have found that the problem with most experts is they spend all their time in the classroom and not in the working world. Most of the time a PHD will stand for piled high and deep.

regardless, the events that unfolded are very saddening.  But it is prime example of where we are headed, bigger, faster, cheaper seem to be what they want now days.  In the end the bigger faster and cheaper attributed to what happened.

Have you ever seen  time laps of how they do buildings in places like china? They build and entire floor offsite and then come in and bolt it to a stricture.  scary really.

 

[Andy Peters]

Yet if you build a tower block for hundreds of people to live in...............................

This tragedy had nothing to do with experts.

It had everything to do with greedy landlords bribing officials to allow such a firetrap to be built.

Please.

 

[ruffrecords]

tragic events.

I have found that the problem with most experts is they spend all their time in the classroom and not in the working world.

Not really experts to my mind. You know the old saying. Those who can, do, and those who can't, teach.

Cheers

ian

 

[john12ax7]

Not listening to experts is actually more of a problem. The intelligent, experienced, voices of reason are often drowned out and neglected by politicians, greedy businessmen, and those that think they know more than they actually do.

Horrible tragedy

 

[Brian Roth]

Odd how these tragedies happen with all the knowledge available.

Off topic somewhat....but back in the early 1980's during a major studio build-out...

The rooms were in the "basement" of a 22 story building.  Wood structures for the studio were not allowed.  The plaster board had to be specially rated, as were the bazillions of tons <g> of "rock wool" used for insulation.  All spaces had to have sprinklers.

(sidebar..we worried about the sprinklers, but a Halon system cost waaay more than what we estimated the studio equipment was worth if the sprinklers were activated.)

I am totally stunned that such a Towering Inferno can happen in the UK, USA!  How can this happen?????

Bri

 

[sahib]

They are still not saying what sort of cladding material was used but apparently it was banned in the US.

Based on what I have seen so far I am betting on plaster board skinned polyurethane foam.  The fact that the fire literally engulfed the entire building within minutes is a good indication of this. A council owned housing estate just behind us, and another one down the road both of which are tower blocks  have only been "refurbished" a couple of years ago in this way. I don't mean to be smug but I have told so many times that how anybody can approve polyurethane to be used in this way.

As for the experts it all depends on the expert but in general what we have in planning departments and building control in these days is mostly dummies who are good at ticking boxes. Part of my business  was also in architectural modelmaking and I have quite a lot of stories to tell. Plus I had my own direct experience with planning and health and safety dummies. When I had a planning meeting for converting  my old business premises into residential the planning officer told us that what we proposed for the basement would not provide sufficient daylight to qualify the area to be habitable. I asked him what amount of light that the regulations specified and his answer was  that he did not know.

These are all a result of cost cutting in the name of efficiency. I am sure a few real experts raised this concern but they were shut down by the internal politics, because the budget had to be met. But you can absolutely see now that the sh*t hit the fan. Literally the day after the fire Scottish parliament was debating  the issue because everybody is now sh*tting themselves. Mayor of London did not perform well on this, and as for the prime minister, what an effin  mistake. She turned up at the scene and did not talk to one single resident.

I'll borrow from late Bill Hicks and say that I hope they do not call in the surviving members of the Warren Commission for the inquiry. Or whoever the equivalent old codgers that we have here.

 

[JohnRoberts]

Not really experts to my mind. You know the old saying. Those who can, do, and those who can't, teach.

Cheers

ian

Those who can do...
Those who can't do, teach...
Those who can't teach, criticize....
Those who can't criticize, blog on web forums.    8) 

JR

PS: Be suspicious of anyone calling themselves an expert. Knowledge is growing too fast to know everything there is to know on any current subject. Some level of expertise is possible about static archaic subjects, that stopped changing years ago..

 

[sahib]

That expression obviously has a degree of truth in it but people generally use it to put down academics which I do not agree with. Indeed there are those who can't do and masquerade as teachers, but there are those who really can do and teach damn well too.

My own experience is that those with real expertise on a given subject generally keep a low profile. It is the ambulance chasers that give them the bad name. I strongly recommend you to  watch Oscar Pistorius  murder trial if you want to see how they get torn to pieces by the great Gerrie Nel. Oh, mummy, daddy!  I would not like to be cross examined by him.

 

[living sounds]

Good book on the subject I'm currently reading:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Death_of_Expertise

It's too early to arrive at definitive conclusions about the London tragedy.

 

[JohnRoberts]

I offered that extended aphorism ("those who can do") to be humourous but as with most good humor there is a thread of truth.

re: "death of expertise", perhaps government using scientists as an excuse for questionable policy justifying government force may degrade public faith in science (at least faith in government experts). Further the human experience is not universally rational, but often emotional.

IMO the world would benefit from more universal teaching of STEM subjects (not to mention civics too). When the public does not fully understand the science it appears like magic and becomes a matter of faith not knowledge (thus all the calls to authority to justify climate policy.... "trust us, we're scientists  : ".).

Back on topic we will probably learn who screwed up eventually. Hindsight is always crystal clear.

JR

 

[living sounds]

re: "death of expertise", perhaps government using scientists as an excuse for questionable policy justifying government force may degrade public faith in science (at least faith in government experts). Further the human experience is not universally rational, but often emotional.

IMO the world would benefit from more universal teaching of STEM subjects (not to mention civics too). When the public does not fully understand the science it appears like magic and becomes a matter of faith not knowledge (thus all the calls to authority to justify climate policy.... "trust us, we're scientists  : ".).

Now we're back to ad-hoc explanations based on ideological bias. This is precisely what the book is about. There are reasons why experts are in so low regard these days, and the author - an expert on the topic - has spend a lot of time researching those and presenting them. Probably the most important lesson to be learned is to train oneself in the meta-congnition department not to engage in confabulations in areas one is not an expert in.

 

[JohnRoberts]

Now we're back to ad-hoc explanations based on ideological bias. This is precisely what the book is about. There are reasons why experts are in so low regard these days, and the author - an expert on the topic - has spend a lot of time researching those and presenting them. Probably the most important lesson to be learned is to train oneself in the meta-congnition department not to engage in confabulations in areas one is not an expert in.

That would make the internet an awfully quiet place.... ;D  (but I guess I must qualify that as speculation too. )

JR

 

[living sounds]

That would make the internet an awfully quiet place.... ;D  (but I guess I must qualify that as speculation too. )

JR

My guess would be that you're right about that. But the internet is a big part of the problem now, of course.

 

[PRR]

It takes 20 minutes for this ...financial analyst to explain that 80% of the company's customers generate only 20% of the business. He wants to turn this around so 20% of the customers generate 80% of the business. And that's his three-year goal.

http://www.computerworld.com/article/2479710/shark-tank--the-value-of-erp.html