Building lots of compressors....

[therecordingart]

Hey everyone,

I now record mobile, and typically record the bands live. I'd like to put together a whole bunch of compressors so I can compress a little bit on the way in. I'd like to get a solid/tight sound off of the bat, and keep things in check.

I was thinking of building two 1176s (one for vox and one for bass) and then I'm lost after that.

Maybe some Pico Compressors for guitars and drums? Maybe an ART Pro VLA for guitars and Pico Compressors for drums?

I don't have a small fortune to put in this so I'd like to do it for under $2k.

The API compression thread has got me anxious, but I'm not sure how long it'll be until that comes about.

Any ideas?

 

[pstamler]

Unless you're going direct-to-two-track (or analog multitrack) I'd say don't do it; once compressed, your signals can't be uncompressed, and what if you decide you need a different amount or type of compression on a particular instrument?

To avoid overload, just keep your levels nice and low; with modern 24-bit systems you have heaps and heaps of dynamic range, so you won't pay any sonic penalty for recording well below maximum level.

Just my $.02, not corrected for inflation.

Peace,
Paul

 

[NewYorkDave]

I totally agree with Paul. I wouldn't compress the tracks on the way in. Set your average levels at 20dB below your clipping level and you'll be fine. Use peak limiters on unpredictable sources.

 

[emrr]

Amen again. One usually never has the time to set up limiters for desired operation under battlefield (remote recording) conditions.

 

[Ralf Biermann]

Hello,

You may find a good compressor/limiter at
http://www.thatcorp.com/datashts/dn105.pdf

I will make use of this circuitry in my audio amp.

Greetings from Germany
Ralf

http://musicology777.com

 

[Guest]

Hmmm.... May be you need bunch of clipping indicators? It is much simplier to implement, and may be much more useful.

 

[tablebeast]

The guy didn't ask for anyone's opinion on whether he SHOULD do this or not, just HOW to do it. I'm sick of people on here always trying to shoot down ideas instead of trying to optimise them, sheesh!
For your application I would suggest you start by getting your hands on an Alesis 3630 and mod it out. Its fairly easy and cheap. In stock form it sucks, but with the blacklion mod it rocks, especially on drums. If you like the sound get some more until you have the number of channels you want. If you're looking into vintage stuff I'd say build one each of the big clones: 1176, LA-2A, Federal AM-864/U, Altec 436 and then decide which ones you like and make more of them. (Keep in mind that tube DIY stuff may be problematic with heavy touring or any rough handling, make it all point to point and use tube clips for ruggedness).
For sleepers that you can tweak and remake rather than build from scratch look for blackface Altec and TOA compressor/limiters, they are well made and fairly cheap on ebay and work great for rock stuff. The solid state greenface Altec stuff is good, but prices on evilbay are usually too much for these guys. DBX has some nice stuff as well but I like their older models a lot more than their new stuff.
For recording digital multitrack I ALWAYS compress on the way in, EQ too. I don't think digital handles EQ and compression nuances as well as good hardware and rounding off those peaks lets you print to 24-bits hot which optimises your digital resolution and makes a fatter final mix. Recording live with the finished sound on the way IN makes you commit early and it leads to a better product on the way OUT. It forces you to work harder to get it right the first time. It also significantly speeds up mixing since there is less ability to second guess. This has the added benefit of being able to listen back to right away in a live concert setting without a mess of repatching or plugin fiddling before you can even press play. It makes it easier to run off rough cuts for the bands to take home with them right away. Think of how much it would impress these live bands you're recording that by the time they load up their gear you have a disc ready to put in the van's CD player.

Jesse

 

[TedF]

I'm prompted to jump in on this one..... all that stuff about 'keep it clean' ignores the realities of recording..... we are NOT trying to capture the sound that's really there; we ARE trying to capture the sound that the listener thinks is there, and there's often a big difference! The skill of being a good engineer is to make the listener believe in the recording; then we can go further and talk about being creative... but that's another topic.
I believe in compressing on the way in... but I would, wouldn't I!! :guinness:

 

[solder_city]

take a chill pill, tablebeast. if you post a question on the internet youd better expect peoples opinions. with a total of 21 posts here, you hardly seem in a position of 'moral authority' to bust the chops of some of our most active and helpful members.

i guess you never worked in engineering because when you do, youd damn well better not get bent when someone asks 'WHY do you want to do that'? its part of the review process. ive been saved from some poor decisions because a colleague bothered to ask that question and get me taking a second look at the requirements.

who knows, maybe the food for thought will end up saving him a lot of hassle. but if he decides to stick with his original decision then he will find plenty of information to help him here.

i would definitely consider the THAT application circuit. theres also the forssell opto which is hard to beat for straightforward-ness

 

[Baltimore]

I'm all for compressing on the way to disk, just a little, and add more later if needed. I think of it as hitting tape hard, it compresses some and sounds great. You can't undo that either, and people do it all the time...

anyway, for quick and easy maybe you should check out http://www.groupdiy.com/index.php?topic=9042&highlight=tape+opto. I'm getting ready to build a few, supposed to be pretty nice.

 

[burdij]

For bulk limiters, I use the Behrxxger MDX4600. I have 8 channels. You can pick them up for $129 for a four channel rack mount.

 

[SSLtech]

[quote author="mediatechnology"]I'm not feeling much love here...[/quote]
Try turning a little more to the left...

...-That's it!

I agree though, both are valid points, and the hard clip is worse than the peak-limit. Injudicious use of compression is destructive, for sure... -but who's going to teach you how much is too much? -Nobody else. It's something you either discover for yourself, or you continue to wonder why the recordings don't sound like you wish they would...

If you KNOW that's what you want, go ahead and build some picos; they're the classic SSL-channel module type compressor... they do what's asked of them and they're useful.

If you don't know if it's what you want or not, rent or loan some and see if it cures things or ruins things for you.

Myself I record 24-bit with NO compression and no clipping, but I do most certainly modulate levels in the mix if needed. This does undoubtably give me LOTS more flexibility than if I'd done what can't really be un-done.

Keith

Keith

 

[MikoKensington]

I'm assuming you're multitracking?? How many inputs and recording channels are you working with? I'm a firm believer in some limiting in a live tracking setting. If you want to do it on the cheap, you could try to find an ART MDM-8. It's simple and a good safety for your converters. 8-Channels for little money if you can find one. The Presonus ACP-88 is nice too. Once again 8 channels but, with Compression, Limiting, Gating and sidechains on every channel. They can be had for as little as $650 used. A good solution for tracking and then you could use your self-crafted goodies at mix time. Beats lugging a rack full of gear around. :wink:

 

[ruairioflaherty]

A couple of points, a potential ramble

making a decision on the fly regarding how much compression you want to apply to your live recording assumes that your monitoring and isolation is good enough to make that call. In lots of live recording situations that is not the case. I've done my share of live work from straight to 2 track to whole festival stages with splitters etc. I would be in Keef's camp - 24 bit and no compression...

WHich brings me to my 2nd point. With 24 bit you can afford to peak at -48db and you still have the entire resolution of a 16bit recording. That's barely tickling the meters on most recorders. I would never track that low but it illustrates that chasing a high level to your recorder is kinda pointless in a live context. IMHO there are many more limiting factors on the quality of live recording - those extra bits won't make or break the gig,


cheers,
Ruairi

 

[tablebeast]

I'll second the Behringer (only if you mod it and swap out the awful op-amps in them). They are a very quiet design overall but swapping in even mid grade stuff opens it up a lot. Put in some nice Burr Browns and they sound like completely different compressors, though you may at least want to change out the pots as well because the behringer pots are ven worse than the op-amps. You could have 8 channels of the Behringer stuff with mod parts for under $400 so that would be a great cheap way to go, though you may be able to do it with the better sounding modified 3630. And yeah no one is going to steal a Behringer or alesis at a gig, no matter how good they sound. Also, that presonus thing looks promising, I've never used it but I heard a record that used it for all the compressing and it sounded pretty versatile, especially with 8 channels in such a small space. With so many choices just think of your final goal the output (CD, download, etc.) and work backwards to the tools that will allow you to get there with the best results. Oh, and I'm not pissed at anyone I just don't think naysaying is very helpful when someone asks such a specific question. I greatly appreciate and thank you for your knowledge, truly. I just think if you take the time to respond to someone's query you should answer the question before you offer additional advice. If you're going to naysay, be more specific as to the WHY. We're all just learning here...

 

[SSLtech]

[quote author="ruairioflaherty"]With 24 bit you can afford to peak at -48db and you still have the entire resolution of a 16bit recording.[/quote]
CAVEAT ALERT...

this assumes that there is no convertor noise... In fact no convertor out there comes near to achieving full 24-bit dynamic range, as far as I know... however the illustration is valid, and I'd probably say that a negative-30dB peak (which still doesn't trouble a VU meter into moving) is possibly comparable to a 16-bit dynamic range.

Keith

 

[pstamler]

One thing to watch out for on the Presonus multiple-compressor box: there are ribbon cables in it that have bum connections, and the switches are dreadful and go bad. When either of those happens, that channel typically passes signal fine, but doesn't compress.

Peace,
Paul