Cheap coil winder

[Tubetec]

I see a few cheap coil winders on ebay ,
Im wondering if  say a 60mm motorised fader could be used as a wire feeding mechanism on a basic coil winder ,so as to make precise layer winding possible , maybe for finer gauge wires at least. Cnc winders cost around 600 .

Even a basic hand driven winder with a sensor on the main shaft ,then a processor /driver to tell the the motorised fader the correct position wouldnt be too difficult ,could also easily be integrated into the semi automated winders costing  100  pounds or so.

the interface need be no more that start point/end point  and a way to set the wire gauge or amount the winding is displaced each revolution of the bobbin

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FIOocMoRsYQ

 

[shot]

I think this is the best cheap diy winder that can be done!
https://youtu.be/FM4xuE9LAeQ

just loving the trick with calculator

 

[Tubetec]

the electronic counter is clever and cheap . definately an improvement over the clock work needle pointer on the cheap winders .
Ive been thinking of making some crossover inductors as a start to winding . the copper and the bobins can be found on ebay ,really saves alot of money making your own . An anode load choke could be a good second project too.

 

[Tubetec]

I think an rc servo control board could be re-jigged into controling the moving fader ,just the same as a servo, the fader has a motor and of course the pot element for feedbacking the positional info  . Theres programer cards available for rc servo's that look usefull also .
A simple magnetic reed switch on the main shaft that pulses once per revolution is fine as a turns counter but I need to find a way of generating a clock pulses off the main shaft then a way of inputing that via a pwm signal to the servo control .
Start point/end point adjustments can be made with the rc programming card . I'd also need to figure out a way of inputing the wire thickness data so the winding is spread  across the bobbin evenly and how to run the wire in the opposite direction once the end point is reached .

any help greatly appreciated ,

 

[gyraf]

Arduino..

 

[Tubetec]

Thanks Jacob,
Well Ive done a bit of research into the subject ,I've never used microcontrolers before ,
Seems like Rc servo's already contain the H bridge control circuitry needed here , they come in two basic forms analog or digital both with a different refresh rate, 40-50hz for analog 300-400hz for digital ,so basically  this  motor can update its position upto 400 times per second ,but how do I generate a continuous pulse output of high enough frequency from a shaft rotating from 0 to about 10 revolutions per second .
Also what will the minimum amount the motor can move each in relation to winding rotation( this should be able to account for very fine gauge wire)
Ideally I'd like a self contained unit without the need to attach a computer to operate ,

So Id need to be able to set a start and end point for the winding laterally across the bobbin ,a function that reverses the direction of the feed head once the end point/start point is reached and a dial to input the wire thickness so the coils are spaced evenly.

As I said Im completely new to microcontrollers ,maybe I best fire my questions towards a dedicated site on automation .Im also totally new to transformer winding so theres a bit of a learning curve for me here .

Id certainly be prepared to buy one of the chinese winding machines ,
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Computer-Controlled-Coil-Transformer-Winder-Winding-Machine-0-03-0-35Mm-H/382042582031?hash=item58f3832c0f:g:zkcAAOSw44BYIMZi
that one or even the model below without the fancy counter would do the job fine for signal and small output transformers .
Be fun to get the specs of long since out of production transformers from CJ and have a go at rolling my own .
There is a transformer and motor rewinding place in a town not to far away from me , I was thinking of trying to get some some work experience there just to get some expert tuition from a professional .
There are some excellent winding  tutorials on youtube also ,the indian guys seem to like winding big mains chokes to stabilise their supply voltages from fluctuation , I wonder how well these auto tranformers would do at filtering rf hash from our own increasing polluted mains supplies .
Thanks again for your interest.

 

[Marik]

Depends on what you want to do. If you need some ~10 transformers a month I'd suggest to get something like this--you don't really need a microprocessor for the counter--the good old mechanical counter will do just fine:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Manual-Coil-Winder-Power-Transformer-Winding-Machine-Analog-Counter/361894082329?hash=item5442917719:g:tTwAAOSwjDZYkCNG

or

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Manual-Coil-Winder-Power-Transformer-Winding-Machine-Digits-Counter-New/362146763190?hash=item5451a111b6:g:rFAAAOSwj99Z-fIv

If you are serious about making transformers then get something with transverse winding:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Computer-Automatic-Coil-Winder-Winding-Machine-for-0-03-1-2mm-wire-110v-220v-E/401346321667?hash=item5d721add03:g:s8gAAOSwq~tZP45E

Anything in between is just waste of time and money...

Best, M

 

[Tubetec]

Hi Marik
Thanks for the reply .
I found this available in the Uk ,super cheap price ,lacks the motor pulley on the one you showed.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/990723A-Hand-Dual-Number-winding-machine-Winder-Guitar-Coil-UK-VAT/282054552715?epid=1972365062&hash=item41abc2ec8b:g:VIQAAOSw-3FZAbPG

I might grab one of the basic ones  just to get the coil rolling ,so to speak.
A good buddy of mine with a lifetimes experience in electronics seems to think my idea for using a motorised fader,pwm driven ,with a small microcontroller  should handle the transverse winding scheme nicely , so thats another project Ill get stuck into down the line.

Nice website by the way ,the crossed figure 8 ribbon mic looks great, I have a couple of vintage relsosound mics Ive been meaning to try in that configuration ,new ribbons required first though .

 

[Marik]

Hi Marik
Thanks for the reply .
I found this available in the Uk ,super cheap price ,lacks the motor pulley on the one you showed.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/990723A-Hand-Dual-Number-winding-machine-Winder-Guitar-Coil-UK-VAT/282054552715?epid=1972365062&hash=item41abc2ec8b:g:VIQAAOSw-3FZAbPG

I might grab one of the basic ones  just to get the coil rolling ,so to speak.
A good buddy of mine with a lifetimes experience in electronics seems to think my idea for using a motorised fader,pwm driven ,with a small microcontroller  should handle the transverse winding scheme nicely , so thats another project Ill get stuck into down the line.

Nice website by the way ,the crossed figure 8 ribbon mic looks great, I have a couple of vintage relsosound mics Ive been meaning to try in that configuration ,new ribbons required first though .

Hi Tubetec,

If you are in UK sent your Reslo to Stewart at xaudia...

As for the winders, I wish they were selling those cheap ones at the time I started(((
If you want traverse it is important to get a precise driving mechanism with low backlash. The commercial units (and the one for around $600 I posted) have zero backlash ballscrews and steppers. You will need to sync it with speed of your mandrel.

Best, M 

 

[Tubetec]

Im over in Ireland actually ,
I might just get Coles to do up me a few ribbons and have a go myself .

Yeah course with the very fine gauge wires ,precision is going to be paramount ,any slop in the gears and its only going to turn into a mess.
Those 600 pound winders look very nice ,good for doing almost anything  related to audio ,power ,output ,choke and small signal input and outputs . Very few people left here locally with any experience in winding though.
I'll start out with the cheap hand cranked unit ,and then see how far I can get with that before considering upgrading to a more automated setup . I was thinking about trying speaker inductors to order for a start ,that might be a good way to build up a selection of wire gauges ,maybe using wooden spools and varnished up to reduce any tendency towards resonances.

 

[Marik]

Im over in Ireland actually ,
I might just get Coles to do up me a few ribbons and have a go myself .

Coles has totally different ribbon... but you probably know it yourself, right?

Yeah course with the very fine gauge wires ,precision is going to be paramount ,any slop in the gears and its only going to turn into a mess.
Those 600 pound winders look very nice ,good for doing almost anything  related to audio ,power ,output ,choke and small signal input and outputs . Very few people left here locally with any experience in winding though.
I'll start out with the cheap hand cranked unit ,and then see how far I can get with that before considering upgrading to a more automated setup . I was thinking about trying speaker inductors to order for a start ,that might be a good way to build up a selection of wire gauges ,maybe using wooden spools and varnished up to reduce any tendency towards resonances.

If you are thinking of doing it one day commercially I would not even think twice getting for now a cheap one to try it out and getting experience and going through a learning curve, and then just buying an expensive unit. Once you know what you are doing you will make much more money on winding than save on making the damn thing yourself. And to make it right will take quite a bit of head scratching, expenses, and labor...

I started winding toroidal transformers by hand (about two hours per xformer(!!!). Then I got a cheap Albert one, then tried to make one myself... Right now we have 7 commercial toroidal and bobbin winders...

Best, M

 

[Tubetec]

As far as I know ,Coles can do a range of different ribbons to suit almost any microphone ,you just tell them the make and model they have all the specs on file.

Tried winding a wah pedal inductor one time ,do-able alright ,but patience is required.

Wow sounds like your business has gone from strenght to strenght ,
Thanks again for the encouragement .

 

[bluebird]

Hey Marik, I wind with a modified computer controlled pickup winder.

http://www.ukcnc.net/index.php/products/mini-coil-winder/

(Tubetech you might want to consider this as well, they have an even simpler version now.)

It does the job but I like being able to tape between every layer and I noticed the Chinese winders have a tape dispenser on them. The pickup winder was about the same cost as the one on eBay you pointed to. The pickup winder is software based and actually pretty easy to work with.

Have you had experience with those Chinese winders? I looked for You Tube examples and couldn't find much. Just wondering if it would be a step up from what I have and make the tape layering a little easier.

Ian

 

[CJ]

build your own winder, get a big motor, DC, then a variac , hen a big heat-sinked bridge rectifier,  now you are well on your way,

why a big motor? torque. you need torque to wind a 175 EI bobbin with #17 AWG. you can always wind a small coil on a big machine, but you can not wind a big coil on a small machine. what this does is give you a winder you can use he rest of your life, even if he coils you decide to wind get bigger or smaller.

 

[Tubetec]

Thanks Ian and CJ ,

I had spotted that unit in my searches alright  Ian ,the engineering looks top grade ,impressive incremental resolution too ,definately the job for small signal transformer work.What is the max bobbin size/ wire gauge you have used with it ?

And CJ the undisputed master of the dying art of coil winding and transformer dissection  around these parts ,thats an interesting perspective in relation to the Variac ,bridge rectifier/motor setup ,very old school with no chance of a motor stall,fried Ic's and that accompanying putrid smell familiar to anyone in the amp repair trade.

How does plumbers ptfe tape hold up as an interlayer insulator ?
Also any suggestion as to a good book on the subject of audio transformer winding would be a great help to me at this stage.
Thanks again ,


 

 

[CJ]

all kinds of cheap tape here, 3M 56 for small stuff, glass cloth for final wrap>

http://stores.ebay.com/GAR-STORE/_i.html?_nkw=tape&submit=Search&_sid=443994260

then you need insulation,

kraft paper for low voltage, cut strips from this>

https://www.ebay.com/itm/12-40-lbs-900-Brown-Kraft-Paper-Roll-Shipping-Wrapping-Cushioning-Void-Fill/231863521425?hash=item35fc249091:g:sKAAAOSwoBtW1v6t

for high voltage OPT's you want the mother of all insulations, Dupont 410 Nomex,

assorted thickness and sizes here>

http://stores.ebay.com/Adapt-Engineering?_dmd=1&_nkw=Nomex

wire? Essex is # 1, then Swiss made Electrosola, in a pinch? Tempco or Phelps Dodge.>

https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p2380057.m570.l1313.TR12.TRC2.A0.H0.XEssex+magnet+wire.TRS0&_nkw=Essex+magnet+wire&_sacat=0

bobbins on the cheap? Edcor or Surplus Sales of Nebraska>

http://www.surplussales.com/Inductors/Ind-Bobbins.html

Laminations?  Edcor for steel,  South Korea makes the best nickel lams these days>

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Nickel-Permalloy-LE-25-Core-and-Bobbin-for-Transformer/230634371529?hash=item35b2e139c9:g:tfIAAOSwGFpZwh0N

Channel frames and more bobbins? Heyboer>

http://www.heyboertransformers.com/tubeamps.shtml

first thing you need is a bench, 3 ft by 6 ft.  garage sales are the place for this,

books? check the transformer meta, or look for links online,

you will spend more time grabbing tape than winding, 3M M-96 fixed length dispenser is the Cadillac  of all tape dispensers, about 300 bucks a pop,

happy winding! 

 

[Tubetec]

Wow lots of info there Cj ,thanks.

 

[bluebird]

Thanks CJ!!

I do get my steel from Edcor, and guess what, I was the last guy to buy Superperm EI 625 from Magnetic Metals! I bought them out of it. I'm good for a couple years on that but good to know about the Korean stuff.

Those tape dispensers are exactly what I need, I didn't know they existed. I was just gauging by eye, and getting pretty good at it actually. But it would be great to have set lengths through out the wind for consistency.

I use 3M 56 and 3M 74. So thanks for the eBay link. I hope they have the sizes I use because the prices are way cheaper than the retailer I get it from now.

Still interested in those Chinese $600-$800 winders....

 

[CJ]

scored those M-96 machines for 75 each on evilbay so keep your eyes peeled.  that is what you will find in all the transformer shops. back in the 70's hey were made of steel but these are weighted so they won't slide therefore enabling one hand tape grabbing.  full props for being he last Mag Met permalloy customer!  is it Super Q or 80 Ni? How many pounds? 

oh wow, Litton and Hurst open for biz for Neve lams, probably gotta buy two tons>

http://www.lhcomponents.co.uk/laminations.html

South Korea lams catalog here>  http://www.tradekorea.com/product/detail/P355854/Nickel-lamination.html

US dealer for steel lams>  http://www.laminationspecialties.com/products.htm

 

[bluebird]

is it Super Q or 80 Ni? How many pounds?  :

80% Ni...I bought about 40lbs. The guy sold it for an awesome deal just to unload it.
I never A/B'ed Super Q and superperm 80 because I just got the superperm from the start. I did a lot of A/B'ing with superperm and steel and although I really wanted the steel to sound better (cheaper)the superperm beat it. That's for the line in TX I wind for my compressor. I chose steel for the output (tube push pull) The nickel didn't seem to make a difference there. All subjective of course but there was something about that nickel on the input that made me drop the cash...
I would record a track of audio in pro tools through the compressor, pull the lambs out of the bobbin put the other ones in and record the same audio on another track, then just A/B in the computer. Great way to hear the differences side by side.

I'm on the lookout for a tape dispenser now. Seen some new for $200 OBO. Gonna make an offer...