Cryo Treated Tubes

[Marik]

Hey guys,

what do you think about this one:

http://vacuumtubeaudio.com/cat8_1.htm

Does it make any sense to you, or just one more "C37" trick?

 

[asm]

i know that cryogenic treated metal parts like gun barrels, moving stuff last a whole lot longer and is very beneficial. dont know about tubes though. they do get hot-cold. rapidly, maybe it extends the life alot.

im just suprised they dont cost around the c37 range. thats like 10$ more per tube. not bad.


t

 

[rafafredd]

Yes, the price is not very different from normal tubes. They talk about sonic improvements...

 

[tk@halmi]

I think in the case of vacuum tubes it is a load of crap, another way to get your money. What is the mechanism that makes the tubes better? How? If there is no explanation it is just C37 in disguise.
Please someone convince me otherwise.

Tamas

 

[Gus]

I had read that sometime ago. Lets think about this

Metals can be heat treated in a few ways not counting chemicaly diffusing stuff into metal via heat.

The cryogenic treatment is a good delta drop in temp. I can't find anything in the books I looked at about metal grain changes going to Cryogenic temps of metal that what conventionaly treated before.

There are amorphous core transformer alloy thet go molten to cryogenic to make smaller grain structures in the metal.

If it does anything to a tube I would guess it might affect the oxide coating structure more than the metal

Any good links about cryogenic treatment of metals other than tubes

One thing about the cryogenic tretment of tube "jumps out" is what happens at the glass to metal seal?

 

[Gus]

http://directory.google.com/Top/Science/Technology/Cryotechnology/Cryogenic_Processing_of_Materials/


Looking at some of the pages I see no graphs or papers sighted. Testemonials and short writeups

I would think with tool steels you could make a nice controlled experiment

Grain changes should be easy to see in metal.

Brass instruments should have a different FFT when pinged in a controlled manner.

When I don't see good tests done by accountable people I tend to think junk science.

 

[tk@halmi]

Brass instruments should have a different FFT when pinged in a controlled manner.

Yup, I thought about having my saxophone treated just for kicks, but the process ruins the pads (goat skin) and the corks so you need an overhaul on top of the cryo cost. :twisted:
One would be better off just getting a new professional istrument. Perhaps on a trumpet it could be an interesting experiment without the added cost.

 

[gyraf]

If this cryogenetic treatment really had these claimed results on tube specs, the industry would have picked it up and used it long ago.

After all, this process wouldn't be costly at all for a large-scale operation like a tube factory.

It's C37 allright, IMHO..

Jakob E.

 

[Marik]

Here is there is some more stuff I found, if you can make something out of it:

http://www.tubeworld.com/cryovalve.html

The interesting thing--they specially preselect tubes for the process, which they describe as a "lengthy and in some ways, arduous", then charge only a few $$$ more??? :roll: Go figure...

 

[Steve Jones]

Sounds like a snow job to me... :twisted:

 

[adrianh]

The man Who I first saw this from was Mr. Bill Perkins.
http://www.pearl-hifi.com/

Very nice guy.
He generally know his stuff. And yes I would trust his ears.
The cryo page is here (grab the PDF on that page)
http://www.pearl-hifi.com/06_Lit_Archive/07_Misc_Downloads/Misc_Downloads.html

Yes I know the HiFi world does things differently that everyone else.
But on some of these weird things I do hear a difference.
I have a tube Bill treated but it lives on my shelf and I have not heard it.

This is one I would not crack on till I heard it.
Would I run out and buy this special tube.
No I would just still use the dusty moldy ones I got from the swap fest.
It is NOS and sounds better that what is made today.
And If I only paid USD$0.30 for the tube I can be the one smiling.

If I had a circuit that I had tweeked for years and had rung the last
ounce of sonic detail out of it and I had money to burn yes I would
buy the tube and I bet it would make a big difference.
Since all the other sonic ills had been tweeked out of the design.

 

[Gus]

Went and read the stuff at Ed Meitner site.

Again no backing of the claims no pictures or before and after science.

I guess all the stuff in the far north or south should sound better? Ha Ha

 

[adrianh]

That is right I doubt we will even have
conclusive proof.

 

[Guest]

1) Bill Perkins is known as someone who has ripped off several parts dealers, I suppose you could trust his ears but I wouldn't trust him in atransaction involving money.
2) Cryo treating of tubes seems like a worthy experiment but I have not found it to be of any use for tubes used in microphones. Noise, gain, and microphonics were identical before and after treatment.
regards,
David Bock
Soundelux Microphones

 

[Guest]

I know people who cryo treat thier piano strings and guitar strings and swear by it... It makes sense for a string or even a musical instrument to some degree, though no idea about tubes... interesting at any rate!

 

[Gus]

Do the people test the strings before and after?

I would think setting up "plucking" machine to give a consistant impulse to the string

Then taking a FFT of the before and after should show changes.

You got the 1st and the inharmonic partials (when you read about strings you find the partials are inharmonic more so with thicker cores) do they shift and/or change in strength?

We need more science with this stuff

Or do they just take better care of the strings because they spent more on them?

 

[jrmintz]

On a purely anecdotal note, I've been using Dean Markley bass strings for many years. When their cryogenically treated ones came out I tried them and hated them - thin sounding, less punch, very shrill and harsh.

 

[Guest]

Do the people test the strings before and after?

I honestly don't know... The guitar player who has his strings frozen is a classical guitarist, I didn't specify that before... But I only see him every few months when he comes into the studio I work at. The piano guy gave me somewhat of an explanation before which I'm sure I'll butcher, but here goes... What I remember him telling me (this was some time ago when I asked about it) was that the carbon atoms actually align more evenly with each other when subjected to cryo treatment... So, the partials become more evenly spaced, and the string is more "in tune" with itself... I'll try to ask him the next time I see him, since he comes in to tune the piano at the studio I work at fairly regularly.

 

[rafafredd]

If at least those cryo tube dealers would publish something like before an after tests, like, distortion before/after, noise floor befor/after, transconductance before/after, then, I would probably give it a go, but there is no datra availabe. Just their WORDS!!! Don´t you think this is strange?

 

[NewYorkDave]

I use the Markley "cryo" strings just because they're the only ones in my preferred gauge set (.011-.054) available at my local music store. They don't seem to be any better or worse than other strings I've tried. They go dead in time, just like any other string. I think it's all just marketing hype.

I've used just about all the common brands of nickel-wounds and no one brand seemed to really stand out as being "better", although I do remember one brand being exceptionally bad--they went dead very quickly. I don't remember which brand it was for sure, since that was about 20 years ago.