Diesel Generators

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Gold

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Jun 23, 2004
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I'm looking at a piece of land in the Adirondack Mountains. I would put a small cabin there. It would have to be powered off the grid. I don't think solar or wind would be sufficient. There is not much wind or sun in the woods in the winter.

My concerns are being able to start it after being off for a couple of months in cold weather. I can put it in a shed and possibly build a shed into the side of a hill under the frost line, if I can afford that.

I've never used a diesel generator or diesel engine for that matter. Any advice is welcome. I'd be getting a small diesel tractor to get around and work on the property. Probably a Kubota. Seems like a good idea to use diesel as opposed to propane, but I'm all ears. I'm looking at this generator. http://www.generatorsales.com/order/Mitsubishi_10kW.asp?page=M1000
 
Some thoughts:
Shed must be big enough to avoid fire-hazard. Any generator gets very hot running. I see they have a through-wall option. Check manufacturer recommendations. There are setback requirements from a building even when these things are placed outside.
I would bolt it down to a concrete pad, with some sort of lockable device. This is so it won't "walk" while in operation, as well as walk from two-legged wild life.
Doesn't look like you can start it with a pull-rope, 12volt battery for glo-plugs & engine start. Perhaps small solar array to help keep the battery charged?
How often will you be on-site? These things are designed to operate at exercise mode once a week via a time clock on what is normally the automatic transfer switch that is used when there is utility power available.
I think as long as you can keep the battery charged and can run it on a regular basis for a short time, as well as keeping the fuel conditioned, you should be fine - assuming installation up to NEC standards. Will you wire the house conventionally?
Otherwise, looks like nice specs and a good price.
 
83 amps continuous operation for a mountain cabin?  That is suburban house with a wood shop-sized juice. 

Perhaps start with needs and consumption for a mountain cabin.  I'm on the same page as you looking at places in the Dacks.  Shab is right about LP.  Many camps run on propane only- stove, fridge, grill, and a couple of fixed lamps.  You can even have a HVAC unit LP powered.  Then a simple genny can run more lamps, QRP rig, and compressor/power tools.  I have a Honda that sits 4 months outside between test starts.  Even during the recent cold snap it started after four pulls, and that many because it had a dry carb.  It has a battery start that worked fine I just wanted to test the pull start.

The Adirondacks are beautiful, but most of the park was clear-cut and mined to all heck in the 1800's.  Make sure you back-research the property and make multiple soil tests.
Mike
 
sodderboy said:
83 amps continuous operation for a mountain cabin?  That is suburban house with a wood shop-sized juice. 

I'd like to be able to run a small clothes dryer. It's very wet there. A small one is 6500W. Add in a small refrigerator some lights and a water pump or two and your almost at 10kva. Most of the time it would be running at about half load.

It looks to me like running everything on propane is more expensive than diesel. I can use red diesel which is taxed at a lower rate than diesel meant for use on public roads. Natural gas isn't an option.
 
Spiritworks said:
Some thoughts:
Shed must be big enough to avoid fire-hazard. Any generator gets very hot running. I see they have a through-wall option. Check manufacturer recommendations. There are setback requirements from a building even when these things are placed outside.

I was planning on locating it at least 100 feet away from the cabin.

Doesn't look like you can start it with a pull-rope, 12volt battery for glo-plugs & engine start. Perhaps small solar array to help keep the battery charged?
How often will you be on-site? These things are designed to operate at exercise mode once a week via a time clock on what is normally the automatic transfer switch that is used when there is utility power available.

That's what I'm confused about. I see that there are options for automatic start. I'm not sure how that works without a transfer switch. I think a battery could be kept charged for that. I could always use a bigger battery. I could also show up with a charged battery. There is utility service at the town road. Electric could be brought down from the pole to a shed close to the road. The cabin would be at least 1000 feet away so running utilities that far is not an option.

My idea was to do it film shoot style and run the cables from the generator to the cabin when I get there. I don't know if that's legal. I hope I don't have to dig a trench.
 
Have you done a power calculation to size that generator? The linked generator is 10 kW, and can supply 83 amps continuous  at 120v.
A typical house has 100 Amp service, but that is the peak load you can draw before tripping the service. On average, the draw is much less than that.
That generator might be oversized for a small cabin. It will use more fuel  than necessary, as well as being heavier and bigger for installation.
If you want to use 3 light bulbs and watch TV (500 Watts at most) are you going to want to be running your 10 kW generator?

Electric could be brought down from the pole to a shed close to the road. The cabin would be at least 1000 feet away so running utilities that far is not an option.

Why? Unless you want to be off grid it would probably be much simpler and cheaper in the long run. Unless it is against code or something there. You could probably have a cable put in for significantly less than the cost of that generator.
Running the linked generator at 1/2 load for a month would cost $900 at $3/gallon. And you need to get those 300 gallons of Diesel delivered. 
My family has a 1 room cabin with 2 light bulbs, some outlets, a fridge from the '40s, and a wood stove. We have 60 amp service. We don't use much power at all, but like having it always available. Switching to an off grid solar system would be awesome, but we don't have southern exposure.
 
dmp said:
Have you done a power calculation to size that generator? The linked generator is 10 kW, and can supply 83 amps continuous  at 120v.

I haven't and it is probably overkill. The reason I'm looking at that one is that the generators on that site rated at half the output consume about as much fuel so why not have extra.

Why? Unless you want to be off grid it would probably be much simpler and cheaper in the long run. Unless it is against code or something there. You could probably have a cable put in for significantly less than the cost of that generator.
Running the linked generator at 1/2 load for a month would cost $900 at $3/gallon. And you need to get those 300 gallons of Diesel delivered. 

The only experience with running electric I've had is to my studio in Brooklyn. It cost 5k to run 60 amp 120v service 200 feet from the main service on my floor to my space. That was using the super's buddy on off hours. All the other quotes I got were 7.5K and up. I figured it would be at least 20k to run it to the cabin. Maybe I'm way off. I'll have to talk to some contractors up there.


 
I haven't and it is probably overkill. The reason I'm looking at that one is that the generators on that site rated at half the output consume about as much fuel so why not have extra.
Maybe combine the generator with a battery / charger / inverter system? I just don't see running that big generator whenever you want the lights on.
I looked into off grid solar systems with battery inverter systems, and there's a lot out there. You can get a pretty good system that would give you 40-60 amp service, but it would add $$$ to your cost. Probably pay off in fuel pretty quickly though. There's a minimum amount of fuel the thing will use whatever Amps you are drawing. I didn't see that spec on the link, which makes me think they really aren't meant to run less than 1/2 load.
 
I installed solarpanels to our summer cottage in Finland,
100something watts and there's plenty for tv and few lamps etc. everything 12V stuff.
cooking and heating is done with gas/wood. No running water and no luxuries.
But it's good enough for that place
and it should be quite cheap to maintain..

it's only used in summer time so no idea how batteries would manage in the winter..
and dont know how sunny it's here compared there, but this ain't no california:)
( found this: http://www.solarfeedintariff.net/finlandmap.html vs. http://www.solarfeedintariff.net/images/image004.jpg)

 
If you need to live like you are in the city, in the woods, buy a place on a power line.

I'm rural Maine. Same as your Adirondacks except I can almost see the sea. (if I *could* see the sea the taxes would be quadruple.) On a spit of land 2X8 miles with just three roads (power lines). LOT of land here far off the grid.

I'm 500 feet off the road, 500 feet of #2 aluminum. When I start the microwave, the lights dim. Also when the well-pump or furnace start. So much the homebuyer inspector thought there was a bad connection somewheres. Nope, just a long way to the road.

And BTW, $5K for 200 feet of #4 indoor wire is City Prices. I figure that I could replace my 500 foot overhead line with a fatter one for $10K local prices. Wire prices are way up in big cities. Labor costs are WAY up in cities. The add-on that would have cost me $50K in suburban New Jersey cost $22K here.

> a small clothes dryer ...  A small one is 6500W

No. They all the same size (except laundromat/industrial) and take 22 Amps at 240V (5300W). I know because I installed V/A meters to know my sag.

BUT... hard-burning Diesel to make pressure to make rotation to sheer electromagnetism into electricity, then resisting into heat, is lossy as all hell. With the engine in a shed, you could probably dry a *second* load of clothes in the shed from the waste heat of inefficiently running the dryer. (Engine is 40% efficient at best, alternator 90%, and not even that good below rated output... say 25% of your Diesel goes in the dryer and 75% heats the shed.)

Electricity is the "highest" form of energy. You can make anything else with it, from light to sound to heat. Because everything else is "downhill" for electricity. But hacking electrons up to that high state is really difficult. And generally inefficient. Especially if you lack Economy Of Scale. (The MegaWatt dynamos in the city-stations are not so bad; dozen-KW dynamos are.)

If you want HEAT, make a fire.

Propane dryer!! Standard nat-gas dryer with a conversion.

Propane stove too.

What you doing for hot water?

And heat? (The Adirondacks can be chilly in July. Fireplace dies down just when you need it most, early morning.)

Yes, I have electric dryer (because it was here) and electric stove (my cook likes a certain glass-top). But propane for my hot-water. And propane for my back-up heat. And seriously thinking going to propane for my main heat. (Old oil systems are foul.)

For occasional weekends, you haul a 100 Pound propane bottle to the house. (the 20lb BBQ bottles are too marginal for a dryer load.) But for longer periods you want a truck to come to you. To make that a good deal for everybody, you want as MANY propane loads as is reasonable, to cover the ownership costs (your cash or added to the propane price) of a 200 pound tank.

In recent ice-storms, a neighbor 800 feet away through the woods had to run a generator for a week. The sound was real damm annoying. Not loud, trucks on the road are louder; but steady. And 800' for wire is costly. Moved to 100' away it would be 18dB louder. Yes a concrete (not board) bunker would help, but then there's the exhaust. You'll want to dig a deep pit and roof it, run the exhaust in there.

> Most of the time it would be running at about half load.

My household average electric load over the month is 1,064 Watts. I have not seen a peak load over 10,000W (including dryer/stove).

So the part-load efficiency is VERY important.

One nice thing about a Diesel is that its efficiency does not fall-off SO much at part load, not like throttle engines. It's not really stupid for truckers to leave their engines running all night to heat/cool/TV the sleeper. In very cold weather an idling Diesel won't stay warm.

But I don't know much more about Diesels except there IS a lot to know. Water in the filters stops them dead. Air in the lines is bad. The fuel goes bad (not as fast as gasoline, but Propane never goes bad). Arctic Vortex turns Diesel fuel to gum (mix kerosene).

Propane keeps better. And I know that a happy propane engine is VERY clean. But smaller sizes are spark/throttle engines, and the efficiency falls off bad at part-load. (There is a gas-fuel Diesel-- inhales an air/fuel-gas mix, then injects a micro-drop of oil-fuel to ignite it. I have only seen this technology in much bigger engines than you need. And you still have to keep fresh oil-fuel.)

I have considered a 5KW generator just to run lights, furnace, and either pump or microwave (no drying no stove). I figure I'd be going for gasoline every day, about $28/day. This is less electric than I get from the power company for $4/day. So on-site engine generation cost 7 times as much as you pay PSE&G/PECO.

A large part of that, for me, is the 4800W start-up of the furnace blower. I need that much engine, but only a minute a day (twenty 3-second bursts). With utility power I split that cost with 10,000 other customers who don't all burst at once. (I have thought about storage but it gets complicated and costly.)

Really.... look into stringing a wire. There's a breakover near 300 feet. Shorter, a 240V feed is practical. Much longer, the wire cost would be absurd, instead you put a transformer at the house and run distribution voltage on the poles. Transformers are expensive but the wire is MUCH cheaper. 2X voltage is 1/4 the conductor, and 2 conductors instead of 3. Typically you take even higher voltage, the conductor size is just about mechanical strength, losses vanish.

How can you live without internet?? (We'll miss you!) Or telephone? (TV?) Satellite is not attractive. DSL may not be available far out of town. Cellfone service gets spotty a few miles out of town; if you can place a call you still may not have practical data rates. I'm on cable-TV internet and back to POTS for talk, so my pole-line carries three services (power cable phone). The poles (and tree-clearance) are a significant part of bringing power in.

Don't forget small hydro. I have a seep on my property. With a long pipe and a mini turbine I could extract 50-100 Watts steady 48 weeks a year (900W in heavy rain, zero some weeks). With an actual stream you can extract kilowatts.
 
PRR said:
If you need to live like you are in the city, in the woods, buy a place on a power line.

Not at all. We just got back from staying in a Yurt with a small propane heater in the -10ºF weather. 2/3 of a mile up a trail. No running water. You have to backpack everything in. I like the back woods and cold weather.

And BTW, $5K for 200 feet of #4 indoor wire is City Prices. I figure that I could replace my 500 foot overhead line with a fatter one for $10K local prices. Wire prices are way up in big cities. Labor costs are WAY up in cities. The add-on that would have cost me $50K in suburban New Jersey cost $22K here.

That's good to know. I would prefer town electric service if it's affordable to run it. I don't need a dryer but we do a lot of hiking in the mud.

If you want HEAT, make a fire.

I thought I would put in a 12"x12" wood stove. That would be good for the winter but too much for the other eight months. I thought some sort of electric heat. Maybe a mini split. The cabin would be about 250 sq. ft.


What you doing for hot water?

And heat? (The Adirondacks can be chilly in July. Fireplace dies down just when you need it most, early morning.)

For occasional weekends, you haul a 100 Pound propane bottle to the house. (the 20lb BBQ bottles are too marginal for a dryer load.) But for longer periods you want a truck to come to you. To make that a good deal for everybody, you want as MANY propane loads as is reasonable, to cover the ownership costs (your cash or added to the propane price) of a 200 pound tank.

It's no problem hauling the propane. I'm planning on getting a small tractor like a Kubota. If propane is easier to deal with and more reliable than diesel, that's a big plus. I have noticed a lot of propane around there. I was planning on using cast iron propane burners for cooking. Maybe an oven but not necessarily. I thought an electric hot water heater but if it's easier and about the same price to run it on propane I'd do that.

There is a decent sized stream on the property. Trout! I will get water from there. It's legal. The stream source is a few miles away. The water is clean but of course I will filter it. I'd like to investigate small hydroelectric. Hopefully there is a contractor there who can help me sort through all this stuff.

The property has almost not road frontage. You have to go back on the driveway/private road along the stream almost 750 ft before you get to the horse path that goes through the property. The road is cut into the side of a hill. It's about 25ft from the top of the hill to the stream. The road sits about 12 ft up.

I could build things into the side of the hill. If labor is much less expensive that would be great. It would provide easy access and sound and weather isolation.

How can you live without internet?? (We'll miss you!) Or telephone? (TV?) Satellite is not attractive. DSL may not be available far out of town. Cellfone service gets spotty a few miles out of town; if you can place a call you still may not have practical data rates. I'm on cable-TV internet and back to POTS for talk, so my pole-line carries three services (power cable phone). The poles (and tree-clearance) are a significant part of bringing power in.

My thought was to bring electric and phone from the pole to a shed near the entrance which would also have the tractor. The road won't be car passable most of the time. I don't want any TV, internet or phone in the cabin. There is no cell service there either. It gets deep back woods very fast behind this land.





 
Gold said:
Not at all. We just got back from staying in a Yurt with a small propane heater in the -10ºF weather. 2/3 of a mile up a trail. No running water. You have to backpack everything in. I like the back woods and cold weather.
I got camping and roughing it out of my system when I was in the army.  8)
There is a decent sized stream on the property. Trout! I will get water from there. It's legal. The stream source is a few miles away. The water is clean but of course I will filter it. I'd like to investigate small hydroelectric. Hopefully there is a contractor there who can help me sort through all this stuff.
You may have problems getting permission to interfere with water flow in streams, but if you have enough vertical drop/flow, and full year round water, this would be sweet. These are becoming popular again.
I could build things into the side of the hill. If labor is much less expensive that would be great. It would provide easy access and sound and weather isolation.
Do you have southern exposure? What side of the hill are you on?

If you make the living space very well insulated, you need less energy to heat it.

enjoy

JR
 
Before I forget: books you need for the cabin:

Morning was starlight: My Maine boyhood by Ernest Stanley Dodge
We Took to the Woods by Louise D. Rich

Both available very cheap through ABE or Amazon.

While Maine-located, woods is woods. (The back-story of We Took is also interesting.)

Also browse the library for everything by Helen and Scott Nearing. This is more self-sufficient than just get-away-from-all, but some of them are still worthwhile. There's also a slew of Back To Land books on that shelf, some good some awful.
____________________________________________

> I have noticed a lot of propane around there.

There's a clue.

> cast iron propane burners for cooking. Maybe an oven but not necessarily. I thought an electric hot water heater but if it's easier and about the same price to run it on propane I'd do that.

The basic electric "hot" appliances are also sold in gas. Standard is city-gas (30% inert) but there is almost always a Propane Kit with the smaller orifice for Propane (1% inert). So you can have a sleek kitchen range with oven, a gas dryer, gas hot-water.

Even at New Jersey prices hot-water and drying are significantly cheaper with gas than electric. So much that twice (two houses) I ran indoor pipes to bring gas into the house (nominally for the dryer, but later for the heating and hot-water).

A side-note: gas dryer will not get your clothes as DRY! as an older electric dryer. I kinda liked over-toasted clothes. But modern electrics are reluctant to get that hot.

> hauling the propane. I'm planning on getting a small tractor like a Kubota

Driving it into town?? Yeah, we do that here. At the ESSO I was gassing-up behind a Ford tractor, and passed him again 2 miles along the road. But a ride to the propane dealer is a lot further on a much busier faster road. I'd take the pickup or the minivan. (Probably a law against loose cylinders in a minivan.)

> I thought some sort of electric heat.

Again: don't make heat in an engine to a generator to a wire when you can make fire where you need it. My backup here is a propane fireplace insert, which spills heat with no electricity (battery spark). (It would distribute heat better with the optional electric blower, but I'm OK without it.) 

> Maybe a mini split.

Heat-pump? Dunno. Seems a good idea. Mechanically complex, prone to trouble. And in my climate they have a very poor reputation. Poor performance because it is so far "uphill" from outdoor to indoor temperature. (Even in NJ folks report the dumb electric heat comes on frequently.) If you just had -10F, you don't want to rely on heat-pump in winter.

And while a heat-pump can output more heat than the electricity you put in, the generator outputs far less electricity than the fuel you put in.

Yes, in that area a way to take the "muggy" off in summer is valuable.

> The cabin would be about 250 sq. ft.

Oy! 2 of us easily fill 1,400sf. 250 is a bedroom. Cozy.

Interestingly the outside wall/floor/ceiling area (heat loss) does not shrink as fast as the floor area. You might have 9' height in an old brownstone and 7' height in a shack, but that's not a huge difference. Hmmmmm.... R-13 in all surfaces you want 5,000 BTUh. I need 25,000 BTUh in 5.6 times the floor area (though R-19 and story-stacked). So I guess the heat load is not TOO un-proportional to floor area. (Really more about fluff in the walls and sealing all the cracks.)

You have not addressed water delivery. Haul buckets? You can hand-pump, but good handpumps are stunningly expensive (get the one made in Maine). And there's limits on how much lift you want to attempt by hand. (Not just the 30'-20' limit of suction, because you can run a rod down and push up. But 50' of water is very heavy.)
 
PRR said:
Driving it into town?? Yeah, we do that here. At the ESSO I was gassing-up behind a Ford tractor, and passed him again 2 miles along the road. But a ride to the propane dealer is a lot further on a much busier faster road. I'd take the pickup or the minivan. (Probably a law against loose cylinders in a minivan.)

I meant hauling it to the cabin from the road. Town in my case means a single general store with a gas pump. That's it. In the summer a bakery opens up. A town with a supermarket is 15 miles away. I have a minivan but no pickup. I don't think a pickup is in the budget. I'm keeping the minivan. I guess I'll have to have tanks delivered. Propane is looking more attractive.


You have not addressed water delivery. Haul buckets? You can hand-pump, but good handpumps are stunningly expensive (get the one made in Maine). And there's limits on how much lift you want to attempt by hand. (Not just the 30'-20' limit of suction, because you can run a rod down and push up. But 50' of water is very heavy.)

There is town water but again I think running pipe will be expensive. Maybe not. I was planning on pumping water from the stream into a holding tank and gravity feed it through filters to another tank in the shed with the generator. Then pump it to the cabin. I figured electric pumps and I'd just run the hose to the water when I got there. I know it's legal to do. I asked.

This is a vacation cabin for two. Money spent on insulation is money well spent. Studio construction techniques apply here. There is plenty of land and room to do a larger house later on as I'm (hopefully) able to spend more time there. This cabin could become a rental cabin.
 
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