effects of using different types of cable on audio?

[Svart]

OK.. so i've been looking for cheap(as in not new)snake cable for a while..

I have been using belden Brilliance Digital cable(110 ohm) and various other peices and parts.. I was looking at the Belden #9734 cable for sale.. and see that the impedence/capacitance specs are slightly different, less impedence but slightly more capacitance, slightly more inductance and more resistance.

So it leads me to pose a question.. what is the most important specification to look for in audio cable? or to ask in a different way, what specification will affect the audio more than the others?


:thumb:

 

[SSLtech]

The impedance of the output that will be fed into the cable and the impedance of the input at the other end of the cable.

Always.

You simply CANNOT have any meaningful investigation of cables until you specify these numbers. (Caution: over-simplification for the sake of illustration ahead!) otherwise capacitance (which will have a colossal effect on a 100kΩ output impedance, but almost no effect on a 4Ω amplifier output) and DC resistance (which will have the precise reverse effect) will favour one and sabotage the other.

For more information WITHOUT audio-fool hype or spin, do a search for Steve Lampen's papers. Steve is in charge of cable technology at Belden and knows all about those Brilliance cables which you are using.

Don't forget... most cable companies DON'T make cable. They have it made for them... they just sell it. Belden makes more cable than anyone in the US, I believe. They make most of the cable that is sold on racks at boutique stores, for companies that sell it as "the best cable money can buy". They also strand, braid and wind their own cable on the same equipment, using the same grade copper, that they sell for much less. They don't advertise who they make cable for, since they make just as much money on it no matter who they sell it to!

Words to think on. -BTW Brilliance analog audio cable is similar to Mogami, specs out slightly higher, is only marginally less easy to unpick, and is much less expensive.

Keith

 

[Hulk]

Here's a great paper on the subject!!

 

[SSLtech]

...and another...

Keith

 

[Svart]

awesome guys!

I am in the process of building another patchbay setup and have built a new xlr/1/4 inch jack array for the tracking room. i have mogami and belden snakes already and truly don't hear a difference between them at all. All I/O on most of the equipment is sandstate.


let me do some reading!

thanks!

 

[bcarso]

[quote author="SSLtech"]...and another...

Keith[/quote]

However, he misspeaks here: "Inductance can be affected by several factors. The first is the size of the wire itself ? the bigger the wire, the larger the inductance. This is most often cited by those considering speaker cables. "

For example the inductance of a circular conductor is inversely proportional to the log of the conductor diameter.

If by bigger he meant longer that would be something else :grin:

 

[Svart]

when men speak of bigger they usually mean longer... :green:

when women say bigger, they usually mean the wallet.

har har har..

ok back to work.

 

[Svart]

so in my reading, I have taken a few things....

at audio frequencies, most of the issues that I initially thought of are really non-issues and that any quality cable will work fine given being properly used.

awesome


:thumb:

 

[Hulk]

[quote author="Svart"]at audio frequencies, most of the issues that I initially thought of are really non-issues and that any quality cable will work fine given being properly used...[/quote]

Du you know this kind talk would be blasphemy at places like Gearslutz... :green:

 

[DrFrankencopter]

Most things don't matter for permanent installs. But for applications where cables are flexed alot, things like insulation material, braid vs. foil, etc...all come into play.

Me, I like braid sheild.....foil tends to break when flexed, and gets microphonic.

What's a good source for the Belden brilliance analog cable...I'm wiring up my studio and could use 1000 feet.

Cheers,

Kris

 

[pstamler]

[quote author="Svart"]so in my reading, I have taken a few things....

at audio frequencies, most of the issues that I initially thought of are really non-issues and that any quality cable will work fine given being properly used.[/quote]

Keep in mind, though, that for high-interference situations, some form of Star-Quad cable will be more effective than conventional cable in rejecting the crud.

And keep in mind also that foil-shielded cables do a good job of screening out crud, although not as good a job as Star-Quad, but they're really only useful for permanent installations, not something you're going to unwind and wind up every night.

Peace,
Paul

 

[bcarso]

[quote author="Hulk"][quote author="Svart"]at audio frequencies, most of the issues that I initially thought of are really non-issues and that any quality cable will work fine given being properly used...[/quote]

Du you know this kind talk would be blasphemy at places like Gearslutz... :green:[/quote]

Heh. Floyd Toole tries to sidestep cable fanatics by saying that he is more concerned with the "3dB effects", like loudspeaker frequency repsonse.

I tend to pass over the audibility of cables by saying I've never had a system with high enough resolution (whatever that means exactly) to hear a pronounced effect.

But still people that I know not to be lunatics persist in hearing significant differences, so I guess I will just have to wait for the day I have the system and the listening time to reveal them, and see if they exist for me. The indisputable physics effects at least everyone with normal hearing can hear, like the falloff in high frequencies due to the skin effect, but these are evident only in long runs of small stuff. When Richard Greiner did a debunking article for Audio years ago he at least did conclude that you would be advised to locate the power amps close to the speakers and run line level to them, which hardly anybody does.

 

[bcarso]

[quote author="pstamler"][quote author="Svart"]so in my reading, I have taken a few things....

at audio frequencies, most of the issues that I initially thought of are really non-issues and that any quality cable will work fine given being properly used.[/quote]

Keep in mind, though, that for high-interference situations, some form of Star-Quad cable will be more effective than conventional cable in rejecting the crud.

And keep in mind also that foil-shielded cables do a good job of screening out crud, although not as good a job as Star-Quad, but they're really only useful for permanent installations, not something you're going to unwind and wind up every night.

Peace,
Paul[/quote]

I was reminded of how bad normal braid shield is the other day on my bench, when I grabbed a long BNC-BNC RG-58 cable when I couldn't find a short one, and was getting hum trying to make a noise measurement from a not-very-low-Z source.

At high impedances there is also triboelectric noise as the insulation rubs the conductors. Somebody probably still makes some coax with graphite inside to alleviate this effect.

 

[SSLtech]

[quote author="bcarso"]...<snip happens>...Somebody probably still makes some coax with graphite inside to alleviate this effect.[/quote]

Tell me why I have an image of George Costanza in my mind, and the word <Chafing> keeps repeating itself...?

:shock:

Keef

 

[Svart]

I am thinking of running a bunch of starquad from the jackpod( a roll around rack with all the jacks for the musician's equipment) to the patchbay. I plan on doing single pairs bundled together as this will be a moderate flex install. I've been collecting parts of snake cables for use in routing the new patchbays, but I am very likely to say screw it and also run single pairs of starquad..

that's going to be a thick ass snake!

 

[bcarso]

[quote author="SSLtech"][quote author="bcarso"]...<snip happens>...Somebody probably still makes some coax with graphite inside to alleviate this effect.[/quote]

Tell me why I have an image of George Costanza in my mind, and the word <Chafing> keeps repeating itself...?

:shock:

Keef[/quote]

Better than the shrinkage episode at least :razz:

I used to explain tribolelectric noise to people by pursuing the connection with tribadism, more colloquially referred to by aficionados (or aficionadas?) as "grinding". :roll:

 

[Svart]

I was also reminded of BNC/RG-58 cables and their problems the other day..

a vehicle outfitted with our camera system had terrible noise on the video.. this vehicle is also outfitted with a generator. run the generator=noise. run on shore power=no noise.

everybody scratching their heads, bosses looking to fire people.

I walked out with an o'scope and grounded it to shore ground. took a look at shore Line and Neutral. both looked good.

left the ground hooked up and looked at the Line and Neutral from the outlets in the vehicle. Line is ok, Neutral is NASTY.

thought for a minute... oh hey wait.. ground in the vehicle is tied to neutral.. ok now we have 1000 feet of dirty screen on the coax which is tied to ground through the power control unit.. kinda the opposite of what it should be doing.

took the power unit out. cracked it open as the whole shop watched.. walked out of the room and then came back and installed a simple line filter on the AC in. installed the power unit back in the vehicle.

checked the scope again. ok neutral is still dirty but the coax screen is now clean.

Video looks good now.

moral of the story: always make sure your ground is not a noise radiator.

:green:

 

[SSLtech]

[quote author="bcarso"]Better than the shrinkage episode at least :razz:[/quote]
Well, soldering some foam insulation before now, I've allowed the iron to dally just a little too long, and I've experienced significant shrinkage!!! :green:

Keef

 

[MATTI]

I think You can get some hint of the cable by handling it, how it feels in use and looking how it´s braided, double braided is the prefrence.
Matti

 

[Gustav]

[quote author="Hulk"][quote author="Svart"]at audio frequencies, most of the issues that I initially thought of are really non-issues and that any quality cable will work fine given being properly used...[/quote]

Du you know this kind talk would be blasphemy at places like Gearslutz... :green:[/quote]

I think this particular issue would be 1/99, with the 1% being the absolute loudest, but you dont have to read the forum a lot to single out those people. .Not everyone over there are phools , and on this particular issue (cables) I think the GS users have been pretty sane overall.

Gustav