End-address condenser mic... thoughts?

[Wordsushi]

Been thinking about end-address condensers lately. I have the Earthworks SV33, which I really like. It has a small 16mm electret capsule and that seems to work quite well. My question is whether or not you could build an end-address condenser with a 34mm LDC capsule? Or, as I'm guessing, would it be problematic because the back of the capsule would face into the body of the microphone, probably not far off the capsule deck? For sake of argument, I'm picturing a body similar to say, an RE20.
So, with end-address condensers, is an electret capsule the only solution?

 

[Recording Engineer]

I remember Tim Campbell mentioning him doing it. Maybe kingkong too? I wish Nady still made the SPC-10. I would grab one.

 

[rogs]

I've built several end address mics with 34mm LDC capsules into BM800 donor bodies.. Photo of typical application attached...

I designed this bracket for capsule mounting, which is not too expensive:
34mm LDC mic bracket by rogs on Shapeways

I've found that with the capsule mounted near the top end of the head basket, the all round open side access to the capsule rear is pretty good, which results is quite a good cardioid pattern.

There are some photos along the right hand edge of THIS PAGE which shows the end address application for my RF mic. Quite useful for outdoor use...

 

[kingkorg]

I've built and use several. I recently posted a Neumann kms knockoff body which has a large diaphragm. I also have one which i love with Line Audio CM4 ''built in''. I had an AT5400 which i sold eventually because of the low end, an issue i'm going to explain.

Depending on how you are going to use it, LDC might be an issue. If you use it as a close proximity mic on vocals like a stage vocal mic it will probably have way too much low end. Which is why i sold AudioTechnica.

Of course you could use low cut, but it kinda defeats the purpose.

LDCs are at close proximity crazy sensitive to plosives, and edge terminated are even worse. I would never dare to put Tim's CT12 and use it as a close proximity vocal mic. In the fake KMS body i put foam between the two internal grilles. The original is also bad performer when it comes to plosives.

You should use an edge terminated capsule because a k47/67 is likely to short because the breath moisture.

End adress mics tend to have quite a bit of funny and exaggerated peaks and dips because the back of the diaphragm is usually blocked by whatever is behind it, so you're never quite sure what you will end up with. It's kind of hit and miss, unless the body is designed for end adress LDC.

 

[kingkorg]

https://groupdiy.com/threads/handheld-ldc-donor.81210/
In this body, the capsule's diameter is effectively increased by all the stuff that is around it, this will significantly alter the response both FR and pattern. Not necessarily for the worse, but you can't expect the capsule will retain it's original qualities.

 

[Wordsushi]

You guys are awesome. This is all great feedback.

Rogs, that custom mount could be perfect for what I was thinking.
KingKorg, that 105 clone is intriguing, and at the same time kinda hilarious. But it really leans into what I was thinking.

Allow me to elaborate on the overall concept, if that helps. KingKorg, I could be wrong but what you're
saying may be a big problem for this. The idea for end-address is primarily for VO or even content creators. I really like how the Earthworks SV33 sits in a way that doesn't interfere with my eyeline while reading off the screen. I'm generally about 6 inches off it, and sometimes I have to use a pop filter. I just had a wild hair about doing an 84 style circuit with a transformer into an end address mic.

 

[kingkorg]

You can notice with that Earthworks how they were carefull with what i mentioned, and how much room around and behind the capsule there is in order for it to breathe. And look at the graph - flat response.

I pretty much grew up at a national radio broadcasting studio as my mother used to be a journalist. At least in the 80's they were all about faithfully representing human voice and flattest possible response mics, yet as directional as possible. A nightmare to achieve in mic design. If this is the road you want to take i wish you all the best of luck!

This might be bulky, but i throw it your way anyways.

 

[Wordsushi]

That's extremely interesting because I had been thinking of the clone sm7b body as a possible candidate. So that entire capsule mount is made of mesh?

 

[emrr]

Oktava MK-102. One or more Lomo.

 

[kingkorg]

That's extremely interesting because I had been thinking of the clone sm7b body as a possible candidate. So that entire capsule mount is made of mesh?

Yupp, i made it out of thin mesh, works great as shock absorber, and shields. This is a T.bone Thomman body.

 

[emrr]

Oh, Lauten LS-208, we're using one on a live music show and it's great.

 

[Gus]

https://www.manley.com/legacy/babymic

 

[Icantthinkofaname]

As someone else mentioned, the Oktava MK-102 is the kind of thing you're looking for. Of course you could build one too.

An electret capsule isn't the only option, there are plenty of externally polarized small diaphragm capsules like the ones in the Neumann KM84, KM 183/184/185, Oktava MK-012, AKG C460, Schoeps mics, etc.

 

[mrgrooves666]

Oktava MK-102. One or more Lomo.

Was thinking exactly the same, the MK-102 is a very elegant and simply executed example, too bad they choose a k67 style backplate, somewhat very bright response with the 012 preamp...

 

[Gus]

I once worked on two Lomo 19a19s one was amazing sounding the other one was nice

 

[Wordsushi]

As someone else mentioned, the Oktava MK-102 is the kind of thing you're looking for. Of course you could build one too.

It's something I'd prefer to build rather than buy. But all these end address mics folks have mentioned are good inspiration. I do like the SM7b body. I think for voice capture, a capsule an inch or so behind a grill would be better than a k84 style or shotgun mic with a capsule on the end. Really, this is great stuff, guys. I feel like this is definitely possible, as opposed to this morning when I wasn't quite sure.

 

[emrr]

Was thinking exactly the same, the MK-102 is a very elegant and simply executed example, too bad they choose a k67 style backplate, somewhat very bright response with the 012 preamp...

Fantastic sounding tom mic in a drum kit with great sounding off axis response making very natural easy to manage cymbal bleed. Proof that end address with an invisibly small mic body has advantages.

 

[Icantthinkofaname]

shotgun mic with a capsule on the end

A shotgun mic capsule is isn't at the end. It's usually at the back of the interference tube.

Fantastic sounding tom mic in a drum kit with great sounding off axis response making very natural easy to manage cymbal bleed. Proof that end address with an invisibly small mic body has advantages.

I've heard a lot of people really like the MK-012 (cardioid and hypercardioid) on toms too.

 

[Gus]

The KM74 has an interesting grill design

 

[Wordsushi]

A shotgun mic capsule is isn't at the end. It's usually at the back of the interference tube.

Ah, yes. Good point. I should have said "pencil" mic in that regard. Today, I'm thinking I shouldn't rule out any particular body style as I kick this down the road and see where it leads.
Though I do like this Pittman mic form factor with the detachable headbasket.