Forbidden Planet Circuits: Louis Barron's Creations

[tablebeast]

I was wondering if anyone had schematics for any of the Louis Barron 'synth' circuits. If you are not familiar with Louis, back in the 1940's he and his wife Bebe created some very interesting sounds using self-destructing tube circuits with a tape machine catching samples. Then Bebe would construct compositions by editing the tape and using effects and creating abstract soundscapes. Here is a link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louis_and_Bebe_Barron
Ok, so people know about the sounds, mostly because of the movie The Forbidden Planet, but I can't find any info on the actual circuits used for self-immolation. Signal path and types of decks they used for recording would be cool to know as well. Even if the schematics are not to be found anyone want to venture a guess as to the construction of these self-destructing circuits?

 

[tablebeast]

Lots of planes circling the airport but no one wants to come in for a landing? Does anyone know anything about these circuits? I read that they were based on Norbert Wiener's book, Cybernetics. I bought the book and it was just a WEEE bit over my head. Here is Mr. Wiener's wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norbert_Wiener

 

[bcarso]

Never heard about the self-destructive circuits of the Barrons, although of course I know and love the movie. I would like to know more.

I do know the work of Wiener, have most of his books (Cybernetics is the easy one btw---the others are quite dense indeed), and I would say any conceivable link between what I could imagine to be circuits of this sort and Norbert's work would be tenuous indeed. But perhaps Cybernetics, as read by Louis and Bebe, served as inspiration.

An anecdote, about the famously-absent-minded genius:

Wiener is walking along, lost in thought, on the MIT campus, and encounters a student.

"Excuse me---what am I walking toward?"

"Err...Sir, you're walking toward the Physics building."

"Oh. Good! That means I've had lunch."

 

[AnalogPackrat]

That soundtrack still gives me chills. There was an interview with Bebe, I believe, in Keyboard magazine in 1984 or 1985. I have it in a box somewhere. If you can find that article you might have a few more clues about the techniques and inspirations. There were some nice photos of their lab as well, IIRC.

Good luck on your quest.

A P

 

[tablebeast]

There was an interview with Bebe, I believe, in Keyboard magazine in 1984 or 1985

That interview would be awesome. I have been looking for it. I know there is a decent amount of information about the techniques used by Bebe for composition and while that IS interesting, I just can't find any specifics about Louis' creations. Other than cryptic references to Weiner and self-destruction of course. Are these just radio circuits with weird feedback applied in unusual ways? I just think that these circuits were some very unique electronic ideas and their designs should be documented somewhere, wouldn't you think?

 

[Sleeper]

I don't know about tube self destruction, but the first DIY's I ever made besides a few epfm projects was a white noise circuit hooked up to a chip amp. I didn't know that you needed to decouple power supplies. it wasn't in the app notes. same with bypass capacitors. I learned what those were for in a hurry. I might have even discovered this forum as a result.
the chip amp had a protection circuit built in so even though it was making all kinds of crazy sh** happen it never blew. that was a part of its sound, it would oscillate and then sputter into shut down etc. pretty cool but I never added anything to it, I was pretty into the raw sound of it.
I never knew the Barrons did something along the same lines.
that's cool to know.
Didn't they know John Cage? I forget now, but they must have been in LA at the same time more or less. I suppose knowing about Cage opened up the possibility that that squawk had as much potential as anything I had intended on doing
:grin:
sleeper

 

[bcarso]

[quote author="tablebeast"] Other than cryptic references to Weiner and self-destruction of course. [/quote]

It's Wiener btw---Weee---ner. Not to be a whiner. EDIT: thanks for the corrections :grin:

 

[bcarso]

[quote author="Sleeper"]Didn't they know John Cage? I forget now, but they must have been in LA at the same time more or less. I suppose knowing about Cage opened up the possibility that that squawk had as much potential as anything I had intended on doing
:grin:
sleeper[/quote]

Suspect Cage was mostly in NY around the time of FP.

 

[Sleeper]

I got my dates all crazy, I was thinking of cages time in los angeles and assumed the Barrons were there. guess they were in new york though
I love wikipedia.

The Barrons' music was noticed by the avant-garde scene. During 1952-53 the studio was used by John Cage for his very first tape work Williams Mix. The Barrons were hired by Cage to be the engineers. They recorded over 600 different sounds, and arranged them with Cage's directions in various ways by splicing the tape together. The four and a half minute piece took over a year to finish. Cage also worked in the Barrons' studio on his Music for Magnetic Tape with other notable composers, including Morton Feldman, Earle Brown, and David Tudor. It was Cage who first encouraged the Barrons to consider their creations "music"

 

[Scodiddly]

Now that I'm thinking about it, I did read an interview with the Barrons maybe back in the 80's. Pretty interesting stuff, though no schematics.

What I can remember is that the circuits didn't self-destruct, they just made some noise and then went into a fixed state. They'd inject signals into the circuits to get them oscillating again. Each major character had a circuit, sort of like character themes in regular movie music. Louis also mentioned the difficulty with using transistors, because they'd burn out easily. He said that tubes would "heat up and get red in the face" but you still had time to shut off power before the tubes burned out.

 

[bcarso]

[quote author="Sleeper"]I got my dates all crazy, I was thinking of cages time in los angeles and assumed the Barrons were there. guess they were in new york though
I love wikipedia.

The Barrons' music was noticed by the avant-garde scene. During 1952-53 the studio was used by John Cage for his very first tape work Williams Mix. The Barrons were hired by Cage to be the engineers. They recorded over 600 different sounds, and arranged them with Cage's directions in various ways by splicing the tape together. The four and a half minute piece took over a year to finish. Cage also worked in the Barrons' studio on his Music for Magnetic Tape with other notable composers, including Morton Feldman, Earle Brown, and David Tudor. It was Cage who first encouraged the Barrons to consider their creations "music"

[/quote]

That's wonderful that Williams Mix took over a year---about the same as a very different tape piece, Stockhausen's Gesang der Jünglinge . It seems like, in general, as the music got easier to realize it got less interesting.

A Cage anecdote, from his NY years*. He was listed in the Manhattan directory. His phone rings and he picks up.

"Hello."

"Is this John Cage?!"

"Yes."

"THE John Cage??!"

"Yes" <click>



*related by composer Alden Ashforth

 

[bcarso]

[quote author="Scodiddly"]Now that I'm thinking about it, I did read an interview with the Barrons maybe back in the 80's. Pretty interesting stuff, though no schematics.

What I can remember is that the circuits didn't self-destruct, they just made some noise and then went into a fixed state. They'd inject signals into the circuits to get them oscillating again. Each major character had a circuit, sort of like character themes in regular movie music. Louis also mentioned the difficulty with using transistors, because they'd burn out easily. He said that tubes would "heat up and get red in the face" but you still had time to shut off power before the tubes burned out.[/quote]

Aha. That's more like it!

In the days of my misspent youth, some friends and I made birthday presents for another friend when we were about 14 or so. They were assemblages that pretty much self-destructed. Some were more-or-less chemical, at one point with something that caught fire and then burned through a thread and released vinegar onto baking soda and extinguished things. The one of mine had a sequencer using a stepper relay, and the final position applied full a.c. mains voltage to a speaker. Briefly.

I went on to discover more effective self-destructive things.

 

[adamasd]

for those who do not know the Barrons there are a couple movies over at ubu.com that they did the soundtracks for. There is also a whole pile of other great stuff over there.

adam

 

[PRR]

> Does anyone know anything about these circuits?

Probably just one guy, and he's dead.

Why would he document that stuff? He knew what he did. Nobody else was clamoring to learn the secret to going broke with strange sounds. Others may have seen some of the stuff, but few had a clue, and many have passed.

You want to find out who cleared-out the lab when Louis or Bebe passed away. Was it transfered to a museum? Was it chucked at the curb? Did some fan grab it? Even if it survives, it is unlikely anybody has analyzed it.

I hope someone with tech-chops and deep pockets has claimed dibs on Les Paul's basement.

Still, like Leo Fender's last office (which is preserved), much of what was on the desk when work stopped is trivia.

 

[hodad]

Go here

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4486840

Click on the slideshow. There's one picture of one of Barron's circuit drawings. there's also a picture of Louis's son in a garage full of tapes & other crap, so odds are the circuits are there--just not out in the public realm.

 

[tablebeast]

Cool stuff. I had never seen Bells of Atlantis or that Bridge movie before. I've only ever heard recordings. As for why I am curious, I just think it is important for these abstract ideas be preserved. The Barrons were akin to surrealist painters only their medium was sound. What they did was unique and labor intensive, I figured it should have some interest to technical types as an expression of the art within the science.

 

[beatpoet]

http://www.myspace.com/thyfluidmechanics

Talk to this guy, he's an old friend of mine who worships vintage experimental electronica. While he doesn't know much about the actual construction of the circuits, he's got a lot of interesting leads on the older innovators.

Tell him Jim sent ya.

 

[Mark Burnley]

[quote author="Scodiddly"]What I can remember is that the circuits didn't self-destruct, they just made some noise and then went into a fixed state. They'd inject signals into the circuits to get them oscillating again.[/quote]

...sounds like a damped oscillator- have a look on Google for "analogue computer" "simple harmonic motion" "damped oscillator"

...basically a couple of integrators (op-amps with a capacitor in the feedback loop) fed back to the input with a "stimulus" input to "bang" them into oscillation. Or maybe not as clever as this- just positive feedback through a valve amplifier which then breaks into distortion??

...wiki mentions a ring modulator as well- loads of DIY versions of this- my fave is 2x transformers with germanium diodes, but MC1496 double balanced modulator good for modern day audio carnage!

Mark