Green Private Energy Independence

[SIXTYNINER]

Just "2 words" about the thread title :
also bearing in mind the energy cost consequences of the actual Ukraine conflict
(.... cost of living apart )

Solar panels,
a home 6/6,5 Kwh solar panels plant cost about "11K / 12K5"
and some day for installion and ready to produce energy
no radioactive waste and expensive storage costs , no lethal damage to the planet ,
no bills , and "umbilical cords" (a.k.a. independence ? ... true freedom ? )

Nuclear power station :
recent news say that the cost of a plant for electric energy production
is increased up to 5 / 7 times ,
and require more than 10/12 years to start to produce energy
( ...there is some "case" around the world that after 15 years still not completed , and require some more year,
and various additional billions $$$ more ... , ... it seem something like a "black hole"..)
add the not inconsiderable running costs , include those for waste storage, the possible related lethal damage to the planet ,
and disasters such as Chernobyl , Fukushima , ....

so now let's make a simple arithmetical division :
1,000,000,000 : 12000 (cost of a 6Kwh solar panel set) = 83333 solar panel plants / energy independent "green" homes ,

as recent news say that a nuclear power plant cost is about 20 / 28,000,000,000 ( construction times , dangers , planet damages, etc.. apart)

if we do 28,000,000,000 : 12000 (cost of a 6Kwh solar panel set) = 2,333,333,(33333...) solar panel plants / energy independent "green" homes ,

and if the government gave a 50% "green" subsidy to those who install the 6 Kwh solar panel set in their home , also as a tax deduction ,

the 2,333,333,(33333...). solar panel plants can double, triple, quadruple , and so on... ( 4,666,666..... , 6,999,999.... , 9,333,332... )

ready to supply energy after 2-3 days required for installation ,

it would be a bad way for a Green Private Energy Independence ?

thanks for any post about .
cheers.

 

[ruffrecords]

Unfortunately, where I live, I need the most energy when the sun is not shining.

Edit: As I have said before, the only viable solution is fusion.

Cheers

Ian

 

[JohnRoberts]

Unfortunately, where I live, I need the most energy when the sun is not shining.

Edit: As I have said before, the only viable solution is fusion.

Cheers

Ian

I believe the sun is a fusion reaction. I don't expect to see practical fusion power in my lifetime (but I am old).

There are new generation fission reactors that are smaller and safer, but not cheaper due to government involvement and NIMBY. We have used compact nuclear power sources in navy ships for decades.

To be truly energy independent (off the grid) one would need battery storage to support days of cloudy weather.

My brother in CA has solar panels (depending on the power grid for backup). He recently required a service call to repair inverter problems.

If these were cost effective China and India would not be still building new coal power plants.

Let them eat cake.

JR

 

[living sounds]

The only viable option for energy self-reliance with renewables is renewable-to-chemical conversion. In other words, a process that converts energy from the sun (and in principle also other renewable sources) via a chemical and / or biological process into a gas or liquid fuel that can be stored and used easily.

Advancements in this field are steadily being made, e.g.:

https://synhelion.com/news/paving-t...gas-on-an-industrial-scale-for-the-first-time

 

[Matador]

but not cheaper due to government involvement and NIMBY.

Sources of Cost Overrun in Nuclear Power Plant Construction Call for a New Approach to Engineering Design

We document cost escalation in nuclear technology with time, even among plants of nominally standard design. Decomposing individual plant costs, we identify declining labor productivity as a major driver of cost increase over time, which we study mechanistically through a case study of the reactor containment building.
...
The rising costs of nuclear plants are often assumed to be associated with increasing stringency of safety regulations (e.g., MacKerron and Komanoff49,86). Here, we estimate that prescriptive safety requirements can be associated with approximately one-third of the direct containment cost increase between 1976 and 2017.

 

[JohnRoberts]

Sources of Cost Overrun in Nuclear Power Plant Construction Call for a New Approach to Engineering Design

I have been watching this evolve over the decades.

The Vogtle nuclear plant in Georgia could begin supplying power next spring after years of setbacks and cost overruns​

It was originally planned to open in 2016, and some analysts estimate its total costs have doubled from initial projections to more than $30 billion.

===

Yes, smaller, modular nuclear plants (not unlike military vessel power plants), could be cheaper to build and easier to replicate. We still have the NIMBY issue with multiple small modular power plants co-located closer to communities where the energy is needed. Maybe now nuclear can be pitched as "climate friendly" .

JR

PS: I am reminded of the horrendous delays and cost over runs when my local utility (same parent company, Southern, as that GA nuke plant) built our clean (cough) coal power plant... How did that work out (?rhetorical), long delays and massive cost over runs, now burning NG because its cheaper, but we ratepayers are still saddled with paying for that white elephant. The cost overruns are not just a Southern problem, it seems typical for the nuclear power generation industry. Several large nuclear plant builders have gone belly up.

 

[cyrano]

Apparently we have learned nothing from Tsjernobyl and Fukushima...

 

[AnalogPackrat]

Apparently we have learned nothing from Tsjernobyl and Fukushima...

Those reactor designs aren't used in the US. For good reason.

Correction: some BWR plants are still operating in the US. But we never built anything like Chernobyl for commercial generation.

 

[JohnRoberts]

Apparently we have learned nothing from Tsjernobyl and Fukushima...

I'd say we have learned quite a bit...

JR

 

[cyrano]

Denial.

It's not about reactor design. It's about human failure. The Japanese tend to be thorough. Only, they couldn't foresee tsunamis getting bigger.

And why are they getting bigger? Because of climate change.

Again, denial.

 

[AnalogPackrat]

Denial.

It's not about reactor design. It's about human failure. The Japanese tend to be thorough. Only, they couldn't foresee tsunamis getting bigger.

Designs improve. Nothing is ever perfect or without risks and side effects. Mining rare earth minerals/metals, copper, and buying panels made with coal power in China, for example. Then shipping them thousands of miles by sea and land with oil and diesel powered ships, trains, and trucks.

BTW, those PV panel plants use a lot of nasty chemicals. Good thing that stuff is made in China where there aren't any environmental controls in place. Yeah.

And why are they getting bigger? Because of climate change.

Uh. No. Population growth and increasing living standards. How do you propose to charge all those EVs without plastering forests and fields with ugly PV farms?

Again, denial.

Projection.

 

[JohnRoberts]

Denial.

It's not about reactor design. It's about human failure. The Japanese tend to be thorough. Only, they couldn't foresee tsunamis getting bigger.

the flaw at Fukushima was related to cooling, when the grid went down they didn't have enough fuel to keep the generators going until the grid could be restored. This is not obvious but older design nuke plants need external power for cooling.

Modern reactor designs are self-quenching so this is not an issue. I have been watching the Russian attacks on the large nuke plant in Ukraine's grid connections. Surely they wouldn't be intentionally trying to create an incident.

And why are they getting bigger? Because of climate change.

Again, denial.

oh dear?

JR

 

[cyrano]

So tsunamis are getting bigger because of EVs?

Wow. That's a new one.

I'll second that increasing population is a very big factor in climate change, pollution and other problems. But the only way to tackle that problem, is by decreasing poverty and increasing education.

Did you know that since a few years China's population hasn't been growing. Up to the point where the idiots of the PRC are calling for their citizens to breed again, like it was in the old days. Sure, these PRC "representatives" are old. Very old. And everything was better in the old days, wasn't it? Even the future was better then. Especially if you have to face dying soon.

 

[cyrano]

The USA is an oligarchy. Princeton studied just that in 2014, but nobody noticed. Again, denial.

https://www.cambridge.org/core/jour...age-citizens/62327F513959D0A304D4893B382B992B

 

[fallout]

The USA is an oligarchy.

I usually disagree with everything that you say but I can not argue that. 100% agree.

 

[cyrano]

Well, if Princeton told us in 2014...

 

[AnalogPackrat]

So tsunamis are getting bigger because of EVs?

Who said or implied anything of the sort? No one.

Wow. That's a new one.

I'll second that increasing population is a very big factor in climate change, pollution and other problems. But the only way to tackle that problem, is by decreasing poverty and increasing education.

How is poverty decreased? By increasing the standard of living. Increased standard of living requires more energy which includes a bigger footprint on nature per capita. No way around it.

Did you know that since a few years China's population hasn't been growing. Up to the point where the idiots of the PRC are calling for their citizens to breed again, like it was in the old days.

This is not news. The one child policy was well reported for many decades. Who are you to say whuch humans should be allowed to reproduce and at what rate?

Sure, these PRC "representatives" are old. Very old. And everything was better in the old days, wasn't it? Even the future was better then. Especially if you have to face dying soon.

Whining about things does nothing. It doesn't seem to me that you have much historical context. Hopefully that will come with age.

 

[living sounds]

How do you propose to charge all those EVs without plastering forests and fields with ugly PV farms?

Put them on roofs.

https://theconversation.com/solar-p...entire-electricity-demand-new-research-169302
https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2021/10/solar-panels-half-the-world-roofs-electricity-research

 

[AnalogPackrat]

Put them on roofs.

https://theconversation.com/solar-p...entire-electricity-demand-new-research-169302
https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2021/10/solar-panels-half-the-world-roofs-electricity-research

I don't think that's going to work when you add in all of the cargo trucks, big rigs, and buses. Then factor in efficiency drops due to latitude, cloudy weather, snow, dirty panels, etc. They hint at this, but fail to explain it fully. Finally they do admit that storage is necessary and expensive.

I'm not anti-PV--considering installing some here where I can save on summer AC costs (I'm around 34N latitude). But it isn't economical for everyone. It also isn't affordable for many people. In my state we have significant nuclear generation (~30%) which is reliable and safe. We also have hydro. Both have predictable output, unlike solar. Outages here are rare compared to California which has far too much dependence on weather-dependent sources and is actively removing predictable generation plants.

 

[cyrano]

The french decided to cover all parkings over 80 cars with a solar-cell roof. Doubles as a sunroof for the parked cars. Both will be needed.