Guitar player in the control room solutions

[emrr]

I have generally found no need to bal/unbal runs like these in those lengths, really only if you have a known interference problem in the test phase.  So long as the last pedal in the chain has good drive capabilities (some do, some don't), there's no appreciable loss. 

 

[Michael Tibes]

+10 for

If you can put the amp head in the control room,  do that and run a long heavy gauge speaker cord.

I hate anything between the guitar and amp other than my favorite cable and the bare minimum of fx (none at all if possible). We have separated the amps from the speakers if they were combos in order to do that. If that's not possible I'd try a simple fet buffer into a good low impedance converter. My guess is that it might not even need a balanced line, so you could probably skip the conversion. The dirt picked up by the guitar is probably a lot more than what might be added by the long cable. The input resistance and capacitance of the buffer might play a relevant role in the sound if it is directly connected to the guitar. All this might be less relevant with active pickups, but I hardly ever come across any of those.

Michael

 

[Whoops]

A simple solution would be

1/4" in -> Unity gain FET opamp buffer -> Line Driver (for example THAT1646 -> XLR out

That's good

At the other end

XLR in -> Line Receiver (for example THAT1246) -> 1/4" out

This is not ideal, you want as close as much to instrument signal at this end, line level is Low-z, you want High Z here.

A reamp box is much better for this

 

[Whoops]

A DI doesn't need to drop the level.  Some do,  but mostly because when using a transformer you need a step down to get a high enough input Z.

By definition yes it needs.
DI means Direct Input, Direct Input from instrument level to a Microphone input (console microphone input).
So by definition it always needs to drop level to microphone level and also lowering the impedance.

For transparency I much prefer an active DI that keeps signal level unchanged.

No it doesn't, it will attenuate instrument level to microphone level also

The purpose of a DI has more to do with impedance than it does with level.

Wrong it's both, level drop and lowering the impedance plus some other things also like balancing the output, having a ground lift, providing isolation

INSTRUMENT LEVEL
- Unbalanced
-Level: on average -20dBV (from 100mV to 1V)
-Impedance: from 50Kohms to 500Kohms

MIC LEVEL
- Balanced
- level:  from -60 dBV (0.001 volt)  to  -40 dBV (0.010 volt)
- impedance: aprox from 50ohms to 1Kohm

 

[Whoops]

I have generally found no need to bal/unbal runs like these in those lengths, really only if you have a known interference problem in the test phase.  So long as the last pedal in the chain has good drive capabilities (some do, some don't), there's no appreciable loss.

Yes, I also like that, I've used long runs of instrument cable (good cable like Klotz Lagrande) like 20 meters in the studio without any problems, of course that will be a slight high end atenuation but you can dial a bit more treble on the amp, the last pedal in the guitar chain I always make sure it has a good buffer.

Having the amp Head in the control rool and the cabinet in the live room is also a good option, i like that , the long run will be just speaker cable, speaker level.

Using the Radial boxes is also fine, but somehow I prefer to use the long cable run

 

[john12ax7]

This is not ideal, you want as close as much to instrument signal at this end, line level is Low-z, you want High Z here.

A reamp box is much better for this

Not necessarily true.  Instrument amps are fine with low Z.  As evidenced with the multitude of pedals with low Z output. Plenty of guys also use active pickups.

 

[john12ax7]

Wrong it's both, level drop and lowering the impedance plus some other things also like balancing the output, having a ground lift, providing isolation

Balance, ground lift , isolation, can certainly be useful in some situations. But from an engineering perspective, what is the benefit of dropping level only to amplify it again? This degrades the S/N ratio. Just because something is done doesn't mean it's the best or only way to do it.

 

[PRR]

> what is the benefit of dropping level only to amplify it again?

The old mike inputs would overload if a hot guitar were buffered in at unity gain. Combined with the passive interface need for step-down (to give high input Z), that was the custom for a while.

A unity gain buffer is simpler, newer mike amps can swallow huge signal, so unity-gain is also common.

Best to know which type each box in your closet is.

 

[john12ax7]

> what is the benefit of dropping level only to amplify it again?

The old mike inputs would overload if a hot guitar were buffered in at unity gain. Combined with the passive interface need for step-down (to give high input Z), that was the custom for a while.

A unity gain buffer is simpler, newer mike amps can swallow huge signal, so unity-gain is also common.

Best to know which type each box in your closet is.

That was kind of my point,  but you summed it up better

Dropping level might have been the traditional way,  but it's often unnecessary in a modern studio environment.

 

[Whoops]

Balance, ground lift , isolation, can certainly be useful in some situations. But from an engineering perspective, what is the benefit of dropping level only to amplify it again? This degrades the S/N ratio. Just because something is done doesn't mean it's the best or only way to do it.

I never said whats the best, I just told what a Direct Injection box (DI box) does

 

[dp]

Looking at his amp, I can run an extension cab and disconnect the internal speaker so easiest would be the long speaker cable and one of my extension cabs. We have plenty of long runs in our PA setup. I build all of my amps as heads so I'm good there too.

I will need to rewire the harp players amp though... been meaning to do that for a while anyways. Problem is that I don't have a "matching" cabinet for that amp, so I'll need to do something else there....

Great discussion here guys. Thanks for all the input.

 

[john12ax7]

I never said whats the best, I just told what a Direct Injection box (DI box) does

We will need to agree to disagree then on what it means to directly inject a signal.  For me the most common application is recording an instrument without an amp. The output level is immaterial to the definition,  but rather depends entirely on what you are trying to directly inject it to.

Edit : I just noticed the thread directly below is for the REDDI DI.  It allows for unity gain,  does that make it "wrong"?

 

[Whoops]

I will need to rewire the harp players amp though... been meaning to do that for a while anyways. Problem is that I don't have a "matching" cabinet for that amp, so I'll need to do something else there....

Don't worry too much, buy 50 feet  or more of this cable, do a long cable run to the amp.

https://shop.klotz-ais.com/shop/5485-bulk-cables/5476-analog-audio-cable/50778-ac110sw.html

You'll be fine

 

[StevieG]

I know nothing of studios but I would think having radio transmitters around potentially sensitive high gain / high impedance analog gear would be a bad idea.

Like band members using their phones in the control room!

 

[Newmarket]

By definition yes it needs.
DI means Direct Input, Direct Input from instrument level to a Microphone input (console microphone input).
So by definition it always needs to drop level to microphone level and also lowering the impedance.



No it doesn't, it will attenuate instrument level to microphone level also



Wrong it's both, level drop and lowering the impedance plus some other things also like balancing the output, having a ground lift, providing isolation

INSTRUMENT LEVEL
- Unbalanced
-Level: on average -20dBV (from 100mV to 1V)
-Impedance: from 50Kohms to 500Kohms

MIC LEVEL
- Balanced
- level: from -60 dBV (0.001 volt) to -40 dBV (0.010 volt)
- impedance: aprox from 50ohms to 1Kohm

Suffice to say that mixing desks have line level inputs too !

 

[calaverasgrande]

Can't beleive people arguing about whether DI are line level or not?
They are Mic level. Anything that brings it up to line level is a preamp. You can call it a DI, but it's a preamp.
The Reddi is a preamp regardless of what the marketing wonks decided to call it. The big clue here is the combo XLR/1/4" input. Unless you are Stanley Clarke, your bass doesn't have an XLR jack.

Anyway, what I've often done in similar situations is to offend the gods and use an amp sim.
But wait, it gets better!
I use the amp sim for the guitarist to monitor with, however I am recording the plain signal to the track in the DAW. Then after the fact I use a reamp box. Then I am free to blow up the amplifer gain, put mics everywhere, add pedals etc.
Of course this doesn't work if, as mentioned before, the guitarist relies on feedback for sustain or harmonics.
But it is great for getting separation when you are recording a whole band with 2 guitars and want one guitar to stand out with more detail.
And honestly, more than once we've gone with the amp sim.

 

[JohnRoberts]

The general category of SKUs known as "DI" covers multiple variants ranging from passive transformers to active buffers/preamps. YMMV

JR

 

[Whoops]

Can't beleive people arguing about whether DI are line level or not?
They are Mic level. Anything that brings it up to line level is a preamp. You can call it a DI, but it's a preamp.

Yes, that's it.

But I can understand the confusion because some manufacturers sometimes use the wrong names for certain devices also.
But a DI is a direct injection from an instrument into a microphone preamplifier.
So Hi-Z unbalanced intrument level to Low-Z balanced Microphone level.

Microphone level to Line Level is a Preamp
Instrument Level to Line Level is a Preamp

Well it happens the same thing with manufacturer calling the Polarity Invert Button a "Phase Reverse", something that doesn't even exist.

 

[Newmarket]

Unless you are Stanley Clarke, your bass doesn't have an XLR jack.

Generally on Alembic (wrt Stanley Clarke) but also common on many others - WAL / Jaydee / Pangbourne.
And my Hohner B2A has one although it carries an unbalanced signal (which can either be direct Hi-Z pickups or from the onboard preamp).

 

[Newmarket]

The general category of SKUs known as "DI" covers multiple variants ranging from passive transformers to active buffers/preamps. YMMV

JR

Indeed. But a quick query - what does SKU mean ?