Help with Camera Audio please

[sonolink]

Hi all,

A friend has a sony zv1 camera. My question is related to the audio recorded by the input of the Camera. The input of the camera is set digitally. If you set it to zero, it cuts the audio, if you turn it up to the max (30 on display) you get "wind" and a lot of gain.
A dynamic mic plugged direct into the camera, saturates the input of the camera from level 15 up.

With dynamics and lavaliers all is perfect. Zero noise and great sound. My problem has started when I want to record with condensers. I can't get a clean signal with them.

Problem 1: With the input of the camera low, I have to raise the signal of the Mixer that sends the signal of the mics. When I do this, I get saturation.

Problem 2: With the camera input high and the mixer low, I get "wind". Half way of the camera input, I get the best results but they are not even close to what I get with a dynamic or a lavalier.

The camera's input impedance is unknown. The output impedance of the lavalier mic is 1k, Impedance of a dynamic 150R, Impedance of the mixers used 120R.

Can anybody explain what's going on and help please? I'd like to sort it out but also understand the problem. Thanks

Cheers
Sono

 

[Whoops]

Hi,
Lavaliers mics are also Condenser mics and you seem to have no problem with those...

Did you try to use a condenser mic that has a built in PAD?
If not try that, get a consenser mic that you have a 15dbs or more PAD on the mic and see if that works without saturating the input

 

[Michael Tibes]

With dynamics and lavaliers all is perfect. Zero noise and great sound. My problem has started when I want to record with condensers. I can't get a clean signal with them.

Problem 1: With the input of the camera low, I have to raise the signal of the Mixer that sends the signal of the mics. When I do this, I get saturation.

Problem 2: With the camera input high and the mixer low, I get "wind". Half way of the camera input, I get the best results but they are not even close to what I get with a dynamic or a lavalier.

To me it seems like some things might interact here. The wind in relation to the signal should not change when you change the gain. If it does, there might be some automatic functions in the camera working against you, like automatic leveling. Also, ideally, you should not pick up any wind at all. You need a wind protection for your mic: Protecting microphones from the wind

Then - afaik / someone correct me if I'm wrong - omni mics are least wind sensitive, the more directional the mic gets the higher the sensitivity gets. So your shotgun mic will be more sensitive than your omni lavalier - which is also a lot closer to the sound source and therefore also has a better 'signal to wind' ratio. All this should be independent from the mic being dynamic or condenser.

I also got myself a dedicated audio recorder (Tascam DR70D) to handle such tasks. I use the camera mic on my Nikon D3200/5200 in automatic mode to record a reference sound for alignment and record the 'real' audio with the Tascam. I feel much more comfortable with recording straight wav files instead of compressed audio on the camera.

Hope this helps,

Michael

 

[sonolink]

Hi guys
Sorry for the delay in answering. I fixed it with a pad. It was obviously an impedance problem and the pad sorted it

To me it seems like some things might interact here. The wind in relation to the signal should not change when you change the gain. If it does, there might be some automatic functions in the camera working against you, like automatic leveling. Also, ideally, you should not pick up any wind at all. You need a wind protection for your mic: Protecting microphones from the wind

I wasn't referring to wind as in "air blowing into the mic", but more like the noise you get when the gain is cranked up, that sounds a bit like wind, hehe. Sorry Michael, I'm afraid my english is the reason why you thought I meant that and I appreciate your input and help
What do you call that kind of noise in english anyway?

Thanks a lot to you both for your time and help!
Cheers
Sono

 

[user 37518]

Many cameras have some sort of compressors or gate in them.

Zoom, the software of the pandemic, has this issue it has a ducker or expander.

 

[Whoops]

I wasn't referring to wind as in "air blowing into the mic", but more like the noise you get when the gain is cranked up, that sounds a bit like wind, hehe.
Cheers
Sono

Probably you are referring to what is normally called "Hiss"

 

[sonolink]

Many cameras have some sort of compressors or gate in them.

Zoom, the software of the pandemic, has this issue it has a ducker or expander.

I know some cameras have that but how would a ducker/expander relate to this? Doesn't this feel more related to impedance than to dynamic range?

Probably you are referring to what is normally called "Hiss"

That is EXACTLY the word I couldn't remember!! Thanks Whoops

Cheers
Sono

 

[abbey road d enfer]

With dynamics and lavaliers all is perfect. Zero noise and great sound. My problem has started when I want to record with condensers. I can't get a clean signal with them.

Problem 1: With the input of the camera low, I have to raise the signal of the Mixer that sends the signal of the mics. When I do this, I get saturation.

Problem 2: With the camera input high and the mixer low, I get "wind". Half way of the camera input, I get the best results but they are not even close to what I get with a dynamic or a lavalier.

Cameras usually don't supply real phantom power. They often supply PoI, like 5V through a resistor, which is good to power an unbalanced lav mic, but utterly inadequate for phantom-powered mics.

 

[sonolink]

There you go!! Now I understand the problem. Thanks Abbey!!

 

[calaverasgrande]

Most of the time when you are trying to use camera audio instead of seperate device like an H4N, the good way to go is to use one of those on camera mixer gadgets.
They usually provide for plugging in multiple sources and minimal panning. Usually switched L-C-R.
They also allow you to connect dynamics or condensers. With an upcharge for the model with XLRs.
It's a pretty prosumer hobbyist niche, so most brands are going to be Meiike, Adzen etc.
Checked over at B&H and Marantz makes one now?
That is what I'd get, assuming Marantz is still decent.
https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/prod...d_602a_2_channel_dslr_wireless_interface.html

 

[murrayatuptown]

My most recent method for phone video has been a Saramonic single channel preamp with XLR input and TRRS output. About 50 USD, but I got one for 40 including postage from Korea. I didn't want to buy the two-channel version for 2x price as I had never heard of it. If I want to experiment with multiple inputs I'll try an outboard preamp & use the Saramonic box as the phone interface. I had to find out which video recording app behaved with the device.

It uses a 9V battery & produces switchable 48VDC phantom power.

I have been using cardioid percussion mics I bought unaware they had different mounting methods than usual mics. They are relatively 'deaf' so hard to overload, eliminate a lot of noise from off-axis observers, drunks, etc., depending where you're recording.

Does the job for my purposes (street performers and bar/restaurant venues).

Android phone runs on USB charger 'brick' battery Velcro-ed to a camera tripod. Phone is held by a simple spring clamp mounted to a found piece of steel bracket and the perc. mic mounting clamp also mounts to the bracket.

This evolved from a Franken-cam project attempting to solve distortion, wind noise & Omni pattern of point & shoot camera mic.

I carved the ECM capsule out of the camera from the front, tried Linkwitz surgery on assumption of ECM interface component values in a typical camera (used a service manual for a different model of same brand). Worked but omni pattern was unusable. Tried a larger (6 mm instead of 4 mm) one, again with Linkwitz mod, but omni pattern was the weak link.

Since dangling mic was mounted with black photo tape anyway, I had no objection to ugly factor. Replaced the ECM capsule with an XLR jack and DC blocking capacitor and used the cardioid mic satisfactorily.