How many more times?

[DaveP]

What a terrible tragedy, so many innocent young lives cut short for what?

So many parents who will never recover from the loss and at Christmas time too.

This is all so hard to understand in the UK as we have not worn swords or guns since the 1600's.

America is very big on freedom and the free world owes them for that, but maybe those who value their freedom to bear arms should realise that increasing numbers of innocent people are paying a high price for that.  I've never fired a gun or even held one in my hand in 63 years, it never bothered me because almost everyone else hasn't either.

God help America
DaveP

 

[Rochey]

Dave, I'm with you - there's no need for weaponry in peoples homes.

However, there are a LOT of people who feel VERY strongly about their right to gun ownership - especially here in Texas. They main argument is that it's the evil person that committed this tragedy, not the guns.

I can't help thinking that there are quite a few flaws in that kind of argument, but it's a really polarizing topic here. One of those things that once you have an opinion, chances of changing it are very remote.

Terrible tragedy- my thoughts go out to all the families touched by this incident.

/R

 

[1954U1]

To be honest, maybe it is strange, but I, as an old, previous italian left-wing and [more, currently] anarchist/libertarian,
hope that this tragedy will not, at the end, be used against the 2nd amendment.

My thoughts are that this principle is not only an obvious source of applied evilness and/or NRA profit..
it is also about i.e. not leaving the guns only in the hands of gangsters and cops.

I know, when shit like this happens, its easier to point fingers at things rather than at the human brain..
Sure, these things are built to kill, and it would be better a world without them..
but how can a not-predator deal, then, with the predators?

 

[living sounds]

What a terrible tragedy, so many innocent young lives cut short for what?

So many parents who will never recover from the loss and at Christmas time too.

This is all so hard to understand in the UK as we have not worn swords or guns since the 1600's.

America is very big on freedom and the free world owes them for that, but maybe those who value their freedom to bear arms should realise that increasing numbers of innocent people are paying a high price for that.  I've never fired a gun or even held one in my hand in 63 years, it never bothered me because almost everyone else hasn't either.

Agreed.

And these mass shootings are just the tip of the iceberg, preventable tragedies costing many more lives unfold every day because of guns in the hand of people who shouldn't have them.

 

[JohnRoberts]

It is difficult to think clearly when you see children killed like that, but is never wise to consider such weighty matter when emotional. No doubt a force multiplier like handguns exacerbate personal violence, but the culture of violence made a little too "normal" by modern first person shooter video games seems culpable too. 

It is the nature of modern media to make a huge circus sideshow out of such isolated incidents while ignoring the many many thousands of lives lost to street violence in deteriorating inner cities (Detroit anyone?).

Blaming handguns is an overly simple answer to a complex problem and I wish we were a little more capable about creating more wealth to provide a better life for more people (instead of just trying to take wealth from the few to redistribute, as if that ever worked). 

There will always be bat-sh_t crazy outlier individuals... Statistically these are young teen to twenty something men, so maybe we should lock up all young men until they turn 35... ( another overly simplistic answer offered for ironic juxtaposition).

I have many thoughts about this, but now is not the time. If anything my prayers go out to the families, and any suggestion that this could be easily avoided just compounds their suffering.

JR

 

[dandeurloo]

This is interesting.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=p8RDWltHxRc#!

 

[Ethan]

I'm deeply saddened by today's events. The original context of "right to bare arms" was regarding the right to arm militias in defense against oppressors.  Regardless of how that idea has been interpreted through the generations, horrific events like these should bring us together to reconsider certain elective freedoms, especially if it will result in a greater good.

 

[living sounds]

...but the culture of violence made a little too "normal" by modern first person shooter video games seems culpable too. 

This is demonstrably not the case. Video game players are overwhelmingly able to abstract the games they play from reality.

It's all explained very well in this book (probably the best non-fiction book I've read in years):

www.amazon.com/The-Better-Angels-Our-Nature/dp/0143122010/

So yes, it's the crazy individuals (in this case), but looking at gun-related deaths and injuries the US clearly jumps out of the statistics compared to the rest of the western world. Easy access to deadly weapons (including those capable of firing multiple projectiles in a row) is one obvious reason.

 

[DaveP]

All of you guys are right in it, and as you say pretty polarised.  But to the outsider it seems that its the availability that's the problem.

Yes, over here most farmers have double-barrelled shotguns to control foxes and rabbits etc.  They are all registered with the police and have to keep them in a locked cupboard.  Recently one of our SAS guys went to jail because he had forgotten he was given a military pistol as a gift by grateful Iraquis he had trained. (he was released after public outcry).  Its the fact that ordinary people have access to miltary weapons, pump action this or automatic that, that is the problem.

I take the point that its the evil in people not the guns that does the damage, but if everyone grows up in a gun culture and its all glorified in the media and films, the gun is always going to be the first resort, not the last.

I was brought up on cowboy and indian films in the 50's and 60's and I can see that in the wild west there were bands of outlaws that you had to protect yourself from.  In the UK we also had highwaymen in the 1600's that held up stagecoaches so people bore arms to protect themselves.  But when the rule of law was finally spread over the land, bearing arms was banned and its been ok ever since.  Maybe you don't feel the law has done that yet?

To be honest I think that the spread of arms is so widespread in the US and opinions so entrenched that current generations will have to pass away before anything is done.

DaveP

 

[pucho812]

As saddened as I am of today's events, Oregon last week and Colorado fresh in my mind I must remind myself that Guns dont kill people. Guns are inanimate objects; they are neither good nor evil. They have no soul, no will and no malice. Guns are tools that can be used to cause great harm, but they can (and very often have) just as easily be used in defense of you and your loved ones. Gun control does absolutely nothing to keep guns out of the hands of the people who's sole intent is for criminal activity. As tragic as what happened in Oregon, Colorado and Connecticut is no amount of gun control can prevent that.

My heart weeps.

 

[Echo North]

but maybe those who value their freedom to bear arms should realise that increasing numbers of innocent people are paying a high price for that.

I'm not going to get into a pro/anti-gun debate because I truly don't care.  What annoys me in general it the perception that violent crime is on the rise.  The reality is that violent crime peaked in america in the 80's and has been on a steady decline since.  It reaching 1960's levels now.

People who know me well, know that my whole life is dedicated to a cause that is driven by fear based media reporting.  I've learned that reality is often far from what is portrayed.

We live in a fear driven media circus right now.  Don't let it fool you into thinking the streets are not safe.

Obviously what happened today was heartbreaking.

Mike

Edit: well violent crime went up for the first time in 20 years this year.

 

[emrr]

I have a bother-in-law who will argue with anyone, about anything.  He is ex-military, and his wife is current military, she the sole income of the family.  AFAICT he doesn't really do anything but sit around the house, and has a large gun collection, mostly military types.  He's been posting pictures of stockpiled ammunition recently.  Something like 7000 rounds.    He truly thinks the current administration doesn't care about the US constitution, and has it out for the military.  He's buying ammo with her money "while it's still cheap".  Meanwhile "there's not enough money" for them to ever visit other family.  Sound like a good recipe? 

 

[Ptownkid]

But to the outsider it seems that its the availability that's the problem.

agreed

 

[Brian Roth]

How quickly  people forget....

I have lived in Oklahoma City most of my life.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oklahoma_City_bombing

Babies died here as well...and McVeigh used no guns.

I am so sad about the most recent slaughter.

Bad/insane people exist.

siiigh....

Bri

 

[adeptusmajor]

What a horrible tragedy. I have a son in kindergarten, this event brought tears to my eyes when I heard about it. My thoughts and prayers go out to the families in mourning.

It's easy for the anti-gun crown to try to take advantage of every situation like this to push their agenda. Of course I solely blame the guy who pulled the trigger, but if we want to point fingers at policies and politicize this, I would say the gun laws are more to blame than the availability of guns. Every time a mass shooting like this happens, it is always in a "gun-free" zone, where the shooter knows his rampage will be unimpeded by lawfully armed citizens. I say we should allow the teachers to carry weapons if they want.

We all remember the tragedy over here at VA Tech. What you don't hear about much is that just down the road at Shenandoah University, less than a year before the Tech tragedy, there was a similar attempt at a mass shooting on campus. Fortunately, Shenandoah, unlike Tech, allows students with concealed carry permits to be armed, and the threat was marginalized quickly, before it became "news worthy".

Also we can look back to WWII when the Japanese stated that an invasion on America would be an impossible suicide mission due to the fact that all of the citizens are armed.

The only gun law we really need is "thou shalt not kill". And the gov't needs to maybe try to enforce the laws they already have before taking advantage of situations like this and attempting to pile on more laws to further their agenda. The 2nd amendment exists so we can protect ourselves, most importantly from an oppressive gov't. That goes back to us winning our independence. Most criminals who commit crimes with guns obtain them illegally through the black market, where present laws are already ignored. All gun control does is attempt to restrict the ownership of firearms to those who intend to use them to commit crimes, while making the law abiding citizens easy targets.

 

[Spiritworks]

This happened right "in my back yard". Sandy Hook is about 45 minutes away, and I've worked on a daily basis with people who live there every day for the past ten years or more. Just read this morning that the killer's father lives less than a mile from me. I can't imagine what he's going through.
I don't believe that gun control is the end all, and I have theories as to why this type of crime seems to be happening with more frequency, but now is not the time to start that conversation. I think it would be good to address that issue here though, just after a bit of time has passed and we maybe learn some more facts from this latest horror. I do think that we in this forum can have a mature discussion about this and I look forward to reading everyone's input at a future time.

 

[living sounds]

Most criminals who commit crimes with guns obtain them illegally through the black market, where present laws are already ignored.

Guns appearing in the black market originate in the "white market". The firearm related death rate in the UK, where firearm possession and use is restricted to a very high degree, is at 0.22 vs. 9.00 in the US. Gun control, better care for mentally ill people (especially depression, which is a major motivator for these kinds of killing sprees) as well as preemptive measures like mandatory screenings and shutting away of highly psychopathic individuals can make the difference.

Every time a mass shooting like this happens, it is always in a "gun-free" zone, where the shooter knows his rampage will be unimpeded by lawfully armed citizens.

Guns in the hands of (almost) everyone may end a killing spree faster, but you pay the price in a much higher overall gun-related death and injury rate. The bottom line is that it makes a society less safe.

 

[JohnRoberts]

I repeat it is difficult to have a thoughtful discussion about this while in an emotional reactionary state.

I see the often repeated difference of opinion between self-reliance, and an all-protective nanny state looking over us.

I decline to discuss this in depth while this is the only thing on the news 24x7. I haven't watched any news for almost a day. I doubt there is much useful to learn from the media circus.

One additional point related to the blanket news coverage. I realize they are just trying to make a living, but I saw an interview with a retired profiler yesterday on a business channel, and she related how such disturbed individuals often plan out these events in advance, and are influenced by other such high profile events.  I don't suggest news should ignore this tragedy, but they do not need to make the shooter famous, or a memorable villain.

Thousands of children died around the globe yesterday, many under tragic circumstances. All of those deaths are unacceptable, and likewise not easily preventable, but we should still try, when we are more calm and collected. 

JR

 

[Echo North]

One additional point related to the blanket news coverage. I realize they are just trying to make a living, but I saw an interview with a retired profiler yesterday on a business channel, and she related how such disturbed individuals often plan out these events in advance, and are influenced by other such high profile events.  I don't suggest news should ignore this tragedy, but they do not need to make the shooter famous, or a memorable villain.

Exactly.  IMO this has more to do with the media glorification of mass murders and how we ignore and demean mental illness in this country.  Guns are just an easy thing to blame rather than admitting the problem is much deeper and money driven than that.  I'm not a gun person, I'm a prius driving, tree hugging, diversity loving, lefter than liberal sissy man....but this has LITTLE to do with controlling guns.

Saw the big headline on CNN yesterday "Is There Any Place In America That is Safe?!?!".  YES!  Statistically speaking, all of it is!

 

[peterc]

They main argument is that it's the evil person that committed this tragedy, not the guns.

Which is crapola, it is an evil person WITH A GUN that committed the tragedy.

Being cynical, sure he could have used a knife or a club, but the count would have been lower.

Michael Moore tweeted the stastic that this has been the 61st mass killing since Columnbine.

Time to pull the head out of the sand.......