I'm going to post this in a separate thread.

Help Support GroupDIY:

jrmintz

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 3, 2004
Messages
998
Location
NY
I think the kits going on the Black Market forum is a reasonable solution. Ron, I respect your feelings about this. I think some people (me, for instance) have a very hard time separating their business from the rest of their lives. I feel very fortunate (most of the time) to have been able to make my passion my living. So when Steve grows a new business, a DIY project in every sense, I'm fascinated with his progress as I am with the path that led you to draw that beautiful layout. I wish I'd had it when I built my LA-2A. I've been involved with manufacturing audio gear on a small scale, helping a friend get a company off the ground. It's a brutally hard path for anyone to take, and I feel that encouraging and discussing members' new businesses is an appropriate use of the forum. And hopefully helping members' new businesses be successful. Maybe the line needs to be drawn when a tangible product is offered. Then it should move to the other forum.
 

Scenaria

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 3, 2004
Messages
948
Location
Florida
not offended at all...

thats what this place is all about.. can kick scream and piss eachother off but in the end it all works out :)

I can just put something in my sig to point to the "black market" thats fine by me too...I would miss the turd thing though :green:

there is no sense in making a special forum unless perhaps its for commercial and group related stuff...

and keep the black market for personal sales... im sure peter's going to be selling that underwear soon :roll:
 

cayocosta

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 3, 2004
Messages
262
Location
SW Florida USA
Hi Seth,

Thanks for your reply.

I'm not quite clear though, are you suggesting commercial business just post in the BM forum, not an adjacent and dedicated one? No fee, even minimal?

Thanks,

Ron
 

CJ

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 3, 2004
Messages
14,147
Location
California
Darn it!
I was just getting ready to post the Mad face!

But I got one more.

Stephan Hawking:

skirt_3.jpg


But hey, thats a compliment.
I love Stephan Hawking!

Too good for that guy.
 

Scenaria

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 3, 2004
Messages
948
Location
Florida
Ron,

I would be more than happy to donate some $ if it would help. But there are things to consider..

who is going to do the accounting for that money... what is it going to be spent on?

also, who determines which individuals should ante up... There will be group buys in which the indiviual leading them will also make profit, or perhaps get their transformers paid for etc... the question is... do they also pay a small fee and if so what prevents them from simply lying?
 

cayocosta

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 3, 2004
Messages
262
Location
SW Florida USA
Steve,

Are we foregoing an opportunity to set something up that would encourage others like yourself to do more of the same, and sooner? A dedicated forum might be taken advantage of by some of the pro-audio biz "cats" that could put together some offerings centered around the DIY approach. John Hinson, just for example, maybe offering something like a v72 rack kit. Who knows?

Ron
 

Scenaria

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 3, 2004
Messages
948
Location
Florida
sheesh man... you talk like I have some LA2a empire here haha... :?

im just stating that there has to be a defined line...

and like I said...

who is the money for? who takes care of it? and what is it spent on?

I think everyone has a right to know those things.

ya know what....

lets just drop it...make it easy for everyone

Im not going to deal with it anymore, its all just not worth it.

Peace!
 

CJ

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 3, 2004
Messages
14,147
Location
California
See, this is where the
"Wrap it Up " button
and Hate Dept. forum would come in handy!

Gentleman!
Please!

wrapitup.jpg
 

cayocosta

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 3, 2004
Messages
262
Location
SW Florida USA
Steve,

I think you misunderstood. My last message was positive - let's encourage more of the same.

I was working on this before you decided to end the conversation:

That's why it might make sense to have the unique forum for commercial. This way a flat fee gets you a single post (or something like that) - and it stays there for eternity. So say for, I don't know, $50 bucks, you post something each time. That seems pretty reasonable right? So maybe every month or two you pay $50 to get to the top of the threads with some message you have about your biz.

Restrict it so that no big players can take it over. Just DIY member biz. The more I think about it the more I like it. Legit biz between members for profit, out in the open - no nonsense. No ethical questions. Maybe we should consider moving the group-orders in there too, the guys can add the $50 to their costs and mark the stuff up however they like - whatever the market will bear. If it gets too high, someone will come in with a better deal. Free-markets. And the acknowledgement of free-markets.

As far as who collects it, just send checks to prodigy or whoever is hosting this place. Who cares what they do with it? It's toward their overhead here, and to absolve us of any ethical stuff that could one day bring this place down again.

Hey, if it turns into real money one day, then we've got a nice problem to solve - like maybe going completely independent and spending that money on whatever we vote on - a particle accelerator for PRR, or a charity. Or something for CJ!

Ron
 

jrmintz

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 3, 2004
Messages
998
Location
NY
Hi Ron,

Truthfully, I'm so tired and it took me so long to write that bit that I forgot to address that. Where's that rumpled smiley? I don't have a problem with all of the for sale stuff being in one place. Everyone would know what to expect when they look in the Black Market. If the solicitation gets out of hand we can always reconsider. I also think it might be an appropriate courtesy to ask Ethan if his boss has strong feelings about how that should be structured and be guided by his answer. We all agree that if anyone gets too aggressive about selling stuff he should go elsewhere altogether. Rather than donating money, I suspect if we all just keep the host in mind when we need to buy something they sell, we'll carry our weight here. Can't build everything.

:sam:
 

cayocosta

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 3, 2004
Messages
262
Location
SW Florida USA
Hi Seth,

Im tired too, but I feel responsible for the thread and trying to find a reasonable solution.

I'm getting to the point in my thinking that if we encourage profit, we'll have more offerings for everyone, and it seems like a good thing. Maybe Duka will offer to build someone a Pultec for $1200. I think that's cool.

I think that warrants something exclusive to buy/sell/trade.

With regard to the host, if he's not a part of this community other than in his present capacity, I don't think he should be making decisions about protocol.

Ron
 

cayocosta

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 3, 2004
Messages
262
Location
SW Florida USA
Hi Chris,

We're not bickering, but trying to sort out how to do this right the first time.

Let's take the ambiguity out of profit and encourage it. Pay a small cover charge and you'll have the right on a separate forum to advertise whatever service you like - that's related to this forum.

Maybe that would encourage others to offer more kits and other services to not only the members but to lurkers who might like to buy pre-assembled gear.

Let's create a platform for members to make a few bucks openly and without conflicts. No more anxiety. Where's the harm? Let's just cover the house to operate with a clear collective conscience.

Ron
 

Ethan

Administrator
Staff member
Admin
Moderator
Joined
Jun 3, 2004
Messages
1,604
Location
DC
I can see both sides, and likewise I hope that everyone can seen BOTH sides and arrive at a good compromise. I think Ron makes some very good points. I think that what's important here is that he's not attacking Scenaria, but wants to set some ground rules for things like this. Again, in the true spirit of democracy this is something we as a community should work out. So this discussion is good. I think AT LEAST for now, we can agree to keep all things involving sales/money to be limited exclusively to the Black Market.

As far as paying for advertising or even donations, it's really awesome that so many of you guys have tried to contact me publicly or even privately about wanting to make a contribution. I'm managing the forum for free because I love the crazy bunch of guys that gather here. In all honesty I don't think I would feel right about taking money for that.

While Prodigy Professional does own the webspace, we aren't asking for anything. I was told that a few guys have bought from prodigy-pro, and mentioned that they were doing so in appreciation for the forum, which is really really cool. But Chae (my boss) is pretty "punk rock" about things, and never expressed an interest in using this forum as a "marketing tool" when I approached him about it. There is no intention of turning this place into a billboard of 3rd party banner advertisements (unless you guys want that???).
 

gyraf

Well-known member
Staff member
Moderator
Joined
Jun 4, 2004
Messages
10,215
Location
Aarhus, Denmark
This is a very important discussion.

Thanks for bringing it up, Ron.

Yes - there is an inherent risk in allowing commercial offers to be mixed in with DIY. I feel that very strong too. Mainly because there all too often are directly opposite interests between commerce and information. And we are in it for the information.

But yes, I also do think it is a wonderfull job that Steve did, making the mechanics kit available to other DIY'ers.

Why? - Because Steve minutely described the process, the costs, and openly told us about the size of the profit. Not only did he share all the information he gathered in the process, but he did it in a way that allowed anyone to make a qualifyed estimate of the reasonability of his profit.

It's the same with Steve Chef' or Gustav's PCB operations. These are not cut-to-the-bone non-commercial operations, but we can all clearly see that it's not that type of business that will get them rich.

Complete openness about procedures, costs and profits eliminates the one thing that we fear about commercialism - the obscuring of real information.

I think that we could easily allow any kind of semi-commercial stuff (in the appropiate section) if guidelines for openness were followed.

But I also think that we should keep an eye on it - and be prepared to take this discussion EVERY time we're not sure what way we're heading.

..just thinking out loud..

Jakob E.
 
G

Guest

Guest
There were a couple of people, Scenaria is one, who were putting together a project like a kit or a PCB, that was for the benefit of our comunity. They described the process as the went, what difficulties they encountered, what seccesses they had, just like any other DIY project. Some of these folks may have made (or thought they made) some modest return for their efforts to partially offset their outlay. These types of projects are CLEARLY not a commercial enterprise. They are also not just buy/sell/trade types of things either. These unique projects are of interest to me (with no money to buy any of them) and dozens of others. They should not be shuffled off to the Black Market exclusively as they don't fit soley there.

Since we are in the position of setting up our comunity from the very beginning in a fassion we all want to contribute to, I think it is only fitting to include and encourage similar projects to the development of the LA2A kit in the main Lab forum.

We are all (most) of us intellegent and can spot a shark quickly enough. We should not have commercial ventures here, meaning Big Bidness, even in the Black Market. That should be for us to do deals/trades etc with each other. There are plenty of places to but retail.

There is great interest however, in things like someone setting up a studio (for profit) or repairing/modifying a piece of gear (for profit) as well as putting together a kit to help the dozens of folks who were struggling to put together a piece of gear. Let's not stiffle the creativity and community by squelching these efforts. They belong here.
 

moosapotamus

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 3, 2004
Messages
151
Location
New Hampshire USA
I agree, it's all good. And, this is a very healthy and productive discussion, to which I would like to add one additional point/question...

What's the main objective here?

My answer... To keep this forum thriving. Not to try to regulate transactions between individuals.

Conducting all transactions in the black market sounds good to me.

Honestly, it makes me happy when I read that some folks are able to make a few bucks, even a living on this stuff. I wish I could, too. But, I am against asking individuals to pay for their accomplishments when there is no need.

If our Admin (thank you! you rock!) should ever be forced to tell us that we have begun to incur expenses that can no longer be covered by prodigy-pro, well... But, that hasn't happened yet! So, why suggest charging fees for anything when it does not appear that any financial support is needed?

More power to everyone reading this. If you are doing half as good as me, you are extremely fortunate. :cool:

~ Charlie
 
G

Guest

Guest
Oh, I forgot to add, if there is any trouble distinguishing between what is a buisness venture and what is a DIY project...that's what we pay the big bucks to moderators for.
 

SeventhCircle

Member
Joined
Jun 8, 2004
Messages
19
Location
Oakland, CA
I'd be the first in line to pay a reasonable fee ($50 or so?) to be able to post an informative advertisement in a restricted classified forum. Especially at this nice, new site, where everyone's itching to actually build something. I'd prefer that to an open classified forum, primarily because it would provide a way to distinguish our kits from all the used gear on offer elsewhere. And I'd much prefer it to any sort of annoying, useless banner ad, since there would be space for detailed product descriptions, photos, links, etc.
 

Latest posts

Top