Langevin Tube Console

[mr scratchy esq]

Hello,

I just recently came across this forum while searching for info on Langevin tube consoles & I'd like to thank NewYorkDave for posting those great documents a while back. There is very little info on these consoles available. Anyhow, I am currently negotiating with the owner of a long defunct studio to buy his remaining equipment. The most interesting pieces are a Langevin 12 X 3 tube console c.1961 (w/ 2 UA 175 comps and a Pultec HLF-3 mounted in the frame and 12 251 eqs) a Scully Lathe and an Ampex 350-8 1" 8-track.

This equipment hasn't been used for at least 20 years although the console did power up a year or so ago when I first contacted the seller. I talked to ATR services about the Ampex and they are able to service this deck and bring it up to spec. I'm not sure who I should take the console to however. I've dealt with Vintage King and purchased a beautifully restored Calrec board from them a year ago but I'm not sure if they room for this one in their shop. I suppose I could send the indvidual modules as required to be serviced, but I'd really like someone to look at this console as a unit. I intend to fully restore this console and use it in conjunction w/ the Calrec. I'm not looking to part it out or simply rack the preamps. I'm trying to line up a potential tech for this console before I have to pick it up. I'd like to take it directly to someone on the East Coast after I buy it so that I only have to load it into my van one time.

Finally, what is a fair price for this piece? I offered a price based on what I've seen the raw preamps, amps, and eqs go for on ebay plus an additional $1500 or so for the faders, pots, frame, power supply, VUs etc. This seems fair to me but if the seller ultimately rejects my offer I don't want to miss a rare opportunity. However, I also don't want to pay more than what it's worth if I ever have to sell it.

Thanks in advance for any advice,
Bill

 

[emrr]

A console as elaborate as you describe would be a custom unit, since EQ's were not offered to that degree in the stock Langevin frames of that era. Unless it has documentation, you will need someone who can trace the functions and advise on intelligent changes. I have never seen a stock Langevin console offered for sale before, and very few custom ones made with Langevin parts.

Which amp modules are we talking about, specifically? You may do best getting the modules refurbished first, and then have someone go over the console frame once there's less likelyhood of smoke. You could do this with a few known good modules also, but it would be slower going having to move them around to various channels.

Your offer sounds more than reasonable, given the untested nature of the parts. It will take further significant investment to be able to say it's ready to run 24/7 again, and you may find many hard to source parts in need of outright replacement. As you know, the parts are worth more individually, simply because people will gamble a little on untested parts, but few have the $ to gamble big on a whole pile of the unknown. That fact may bring your offer to a lower point, since it's kind of a 'wholesale' deal from most buyers perspective. Most dealers would look at parting this out, and I understand you want it intact, which I applaud.

 

[mr scratchy esq]

It definitely was a custom console. It looks similar to the Langevin console photo on Larking's list although it has 12 large Daven pots for the echo sends and space to rack the Pultec and UA comps on the left side of the console (opposite the patchbay). I'm pretty sure the amps are the 5116Bs and the seller does have "all the documentation."
There is a lot of Pittsburgh music history attached to the board and studio. I know that Lou Christie, Mr. Rogers, and quite a few Doo-Wop/R&B bands recorded on this board. My drummer's dad's band also recorded on this very console in 1965.
Also, this seller has a complete vinyl pressing plant that I'm trying to help him find a buyer for.

thanks for the help so far,
Bill

 

[DOX-EMF]

It is too bad that I no longer work in the Pittsburg Area.
Up untill about a year ago was in P Burg or Johnstown everywknd FOH with a cover band.
Now living about 8 hrs away.
I certainly agree with emrr, it's modular so rather than trying to move the whole thing. ( I moved a 1100 lb vintage API from Phila to LA in a cargo van. Even cushioned had to replace every meter lamp and fix a load of connections). The powersupply should be first on the list as the filter capacitors are probably due and if tube regulated, testing done.
The modules are easy to bench test once a connector interface is made up. I seem to remember seeing the striped "bumblebee" caps in a module
but can't remember right now if they were Langevin or Collins. These most always have to be replaced.
Who ever you find to do the work MUST respect the vintage sound of the modules and not just replace capacitors or resistors with modern replacements.
That can seriously change the character and signature of the preamp.
Not always a bad thing but.....................
I really doubt that the sound of that custom console could ever be cloned with modern design.
And it's a part of local history!! Even better yet and that is worth far more than the individual parts will ever be.

Bill (DOX)

 

[CJ]

Check the output iron if it's 5118b's. They have a rep for popping.
Lots of small wire running hot all the time, thats the problem.

If some are bad, then the rest are probably ready to go also.
And you won't find a replacement or anybody to wind those dual coil beauties.

 

[emrr]

CJ, do you recommend running at the lower 12mA / +18dbm spec because of this issue? Sounds like you probably do. The higher power spec is 25mA / +24dbm.

I wonder if the UA 1008 or 1016 modules have this issue also. I have been under the impression they were a very similar circuit in a very similar footprint. Anyone have those UA schematics?

 

[solder_city]

i think nydave or maybe someone else posted the u.a. schematic a while ago... but i cant find the posting when i do a search. i love this place but the search function sucks.

 

[csikora77]

Check the output iron if it's 5118b's. They have a rep for popping.
Lots of small wire running hot all the time, thats the problem.

If some are bad, then the rest are probably ready to go also.
And you won't find a replacement or anybody to wind those dual coil beauties.

I know this thread is like 20 years old. But I have a question for you CJ, no idea who to ask. But I have 16x 5116Bs and i am wondering what you are talking about with the transformers. I am having issue with a few of the modules. And I do not know whats up. I recapped them, new tubes, cleaned up a lot of stuff, replaced some of the resistors on the input of the B+, and just crackling, popping. No sound on one module. I am at a loss. And wondering if I should be considering the transformers as the issue!

 

[emrr]

I know this thread is like 20 years old. But I have a question for you CJ, no idea who to ask. But I have 16x 5116Bs and i am wondering what you are talking about with the transformers. I am having issue with a few of the modules. And I do not know whats up. I recapped them, new tubes, cleaned up a lot of stuff, replaced some of the resistors on the input of the B+, and just crackling, popping. No sound on one module. I am at a loss. And wondering if I should be considering the transformers as the issue!

ohm out all the transformer windings, write all the results down as you go. Then you'll have a starting basis.

 

[csikora77]

ohm out all the transformer windings, write all the results down as you go. Then you'll have a starting basis.

I actually did this last night! I can write it all down and upload it on here tonight. But they are definitely reading into the hundreds of mega ohms on the primaries. Or just so high it reads open. And only on the ones with known noise or crackling issues. The others test identically and sound fine. I’ll write everything down and you can tell me your opinion. But basically say they are bad, what now?

 

[Bo Deadly]

You will need to be much more explicit about your diagnostics. For example when you say "just crackling, popping. No sound on one module", this would suggest that there is sound being transmitted through the other modules but when you say "they are definitely reading into the hundreds of mega ohms on the primaries", that would indicate that the transformer primaries are open and failed in which case they are unlikely to pass any signal. If your statements are not clear, no one is going to know how to answer.

 

[csikora77]

Ok I will. Like I said I have to go back and write it all down. It was late. And I had already figured I should take readings and see what I could gather. But several of them read into the hundreds of mega ohms. Others read like 1-5 megaohms between primary and center tap on one side or both.
My bigger question is presuming they are failed, what are my options? Anyone that has been down this road before, what did you end up doing? Are they junk? And they be made again, or should i just use some different PP output transformer with similar specs and forget the special windings and construction of the original transformers?

 

[csikora77]

the obviously healthy modules read 1k across each primary to center tap, and 2k across each primary. The others read all varying levels of high impedance. My initial impression without going into extreme detail is they are bad. I will come back tonight or tomorrow with a very specific and detailed chart.
Should I desolder them from the PCB?

 

[CJ]

The varnish they used to impregnate the coils gets brick hard after a while. Combine this with the micro-thin primary wire and you have breakage at many different points in the coil. When I unwound one of those transformers the wire would break about every 2 or 3 turns. No big deal unless you have 8000 turns or more. I think they used the thinnest wire I have ever seen on a transformer, especially an output. So the small wire, large amount of turns and DC current combine to make those things run very hot. This helps bake out that impreg compound which accelerates the hardening process.

 

[csikora77]

The varnish they used to impregnate the coils gets brick hard after a while. Combine this with the micro-thin primary wire and you have breakage at many different points in the coil. When I unwound one of those transformers the wire would break about every 2 or 3 turns. No big deal unless you have 8000 turns or more. I think they used the thinnest wire I have ever seen on a transformer, especially an output. So the small wire, large amount of turns and DC current combine to make those things run very hot. This helps bake out that impreg compound which accelerates the hardening process.

Ok. So clearly making new ones the same way would not be possible or smart. Is there a valid replacement out there? Or can you make one that will work even if the tone is a bit different? I’d rather have working modules than the exact same sound and construction. Is that doable? Seems like a waste to toss them just because the OT is fried. Not to mention I will have lost quite a bit of money being duped into buying them just to give up.

 

[alphasnk]

If all you want is to have working modules while not spending too much money on it, just try some of the current transformers from Edcor or any brand that carries the kind of transformer you're looking for, and see for yourself how you like it versus the original modules ?

You could keep us posted about your findings and preferences

Good luck, but don't worry, it won't be super complicated nor expensive if you're not trying to replicate these output transformers.

 

[csikora77]

If all you want is to have working modules while not spending too much money on it, just try some of the current transformers from Edcor or any brand that carries the kind of transformer you're looking for, and see for yourself how you like it versus the original modules ?

You could keep us posted about your findings and preferences

Good luck, but don't worry, it won't be super complicated nor expensive if you're not trying to replicate these output transformers.

Yeah I guess I was hoping someone had figured it out by already, and someone might pop up that has done it already and can do it again. But if not then yes I’d just want them to work. Thanks for the replies. I will still post the proper readings.

 

[emrr]

I don't recall my measurements on the ones I've seen, but anything over 5K-10K is gonna be bad. There are very very few audio transformers with DC measurements over 6K.

 

[csikora77]

I don't recall my measurements on the ones I've seen, but anything over 5K-10K is gonna be bad. There are very very few audio transformers with DC measurements over 6K.

RIght I figured this was way high would probably be indicative of melted wire or cracks in the windings or something. I talked to David at Cinemag. He says he can make something that will work, but he needs more data than he already has. He has a mechanical drawing and specs of the 129A. Does anyone have more data on the 129-B? I dont see a tertiary feedback winding in the schematic, nor on the PCB, but I don't know if I am just missing it. Does anyone know if the TF 129A is the same as the 329B? I only have a catalog that lists the 129A, and no other info besides the schematic. He was concerned that he needed more specs and winding info on the B version, but I am starting to think, what I have is actually the 129-A, despite being stamped on the shell TF-129/329-B. Also, CJ, could you provide more details? He needs to know the number of turns/ratios, etc. Looks like you did take one apart. Do you have any formalized data on these I could send to David or Triad? We are trying to do a run of them, I will need to purchase a minimum number and would be willing to sell them to folks if there is an interest in having valid replacements for these! Any info could greatly help! Kind of working in the dark.

 

[CJ]

i hope this helps>

https://groupdiy.com/threads/langevin-transformers.74183/