Long term fixes?

[JohnRoberts]

I am a chronic optimist but have been bothered by an epiphany I had a couple weeks ago about the rising conflict around the world. Regarding the Israeli/Hamas (Palestinian?) conflict. From observation it appears that both sides have been taught to hate/distrust each other since they were innocent children.

Distrusting strangers or people different from us probably helped our distant ancestors survive interactions with outsiders, thus getting reinforced in our genome. I don't see any such benefit from hating and/or killing strangers.

My cognitive dissonance is that I do not see an easy, productive way to change the course we are on. These world views seem hardened and difficult to change in adults. In the short term force can be used to stop unacceptable behavior, but this is only a temporary solution when there are future generations maturing with the same programming.

Improved education "should" be helpful but brain development (maturity) continues well past the end of adolescence (nominally 18 YO) and into young adulthood (nominally 25 YO). Brain maturity is the process of different regions of the brain developing communication with each other. The mature adult brain is stronger cognitively. As we age some of these paths degrade and we become weaker cognitively. This is why interest groups invest so much effort into steering young minds while they are still plastic and less discerning.

Education is a strong area of influence and an obvious target for controlling sentiment. Another area is social media, especially fora frequented by young people with the most plastic minds (like instawhatever).

It is human nature to think its different this time or this is some new development but this has been known to political or religious leaders for centuries thus the desire to lock young people into ideological indoctrination.

We need to understand the game we are playing in if we want to win. Sadly I feel like the world is getting worse right in front of us, with little we can do. I have never seen one mind changed by logic and factual citations here, so don't expect different from the world at large.

Good luck to us all.

JR

 

[Tubetec]

I think every society suffers these interminable divisions ,
Its not always about racial differences , but also rich vs poor and how the educational system treats those less well off .

I was one of the kids in school who's parents did have jobs through the 80's , other kids werent so fortunate and were mercilessly picked upon , humiliated and abused by the headmaster and teachers .
Even as a kid I could see there was an injustice in all of this ,but we dare not speak out or even think to tell our parents because it was all normalised or what we'd come to expect , we knew no different .

As the years went by into our teens and twenties the artificial divides gradually melted away during more prosperous times but it became very clear a disproportionate number of the boys who got the beatings faired less well in life , suffered more from drink and drug addictions , prison, joblessness and suicide .
Another thing that became apparent to me later was what side peoples families ended up on during the civil war was inextricably linked , in general people from a more well off affluent backround voted pro treaty(26 county Republic) , more working class people held out longer on the anti treaty side in the hope of a united Ireland. Even 60 years later the kids whos grandads blew up viaducts and bridges during the civil war days werent allowed forget it .

My dad spent around half his career in the navy , so regularly worked alongside the Gardai ( Irish police ) , if the cops dropped me home or had occasion to call upto the house they were always shown respect , not that the cops showed me and my friends much,
Typically if the cops called around to someone in the working class areas they got a very different response , 'will you ever go way and fuck off' and the door was closed in their face . They had no faith in a justice system that covered up abuse .

The full extent of what the working class lads had faced only became known to me in recent years and I have to say I now understand their position a lot better .

 

[ruffrecords]

It is an inconvenient truth that religion, which is intended to help people lead better lives, is the root cause of the majority of conflicts now and in the past.

Cheers

Ian

 

[Tubetec]

Well if you were certain god was on your side , a holy war was justifiable ,
look at Africa .

 

[JohnRoberts]

It is an inconvenient truth that religion, which is intended to help people lead better lives, is the root cause of the majority of conflicts now and in the past.

Cheers

Ian

More Karl Marx...?

The opium of the people or opium of the masses is a dictum used in reference to religion, derived from a frequently paraphrased partial statement of German revolutionary and critic of political economy Karl Marx: "Religion is the opium of the people." In context, the statement is part of Marx's analysis that religion's role is as a metaphysical balm for the real suffering in the universe and in society.

Religion just like everything else is about gathering power and self survival. Most of the older western religions have matured beyond the dictate that non-believers must die and have managed to coexist peaceably with other religions. With Islam non-believers must convert, pay taxes (Jizya***, or die.

I don't feel strongly one way or the other about religion but notice as I get older I have friends who want to help me "get right with...", before I die. I just about bum rushed one old friend out of my house until he stopped his proselytizing. I could see that he really believed he was helping me, but it was not appreciated.

JR

**** I recall when reading the historical text about the Tripoli Pirates, western sailors who were captured and refused to convert to Islam, were often made slaves.

 

[sahib]

..........Most of the older western religions have matured beyond the dictate that non-believers must die and have managed to coexist peaceably with other religions. With Islam non-believers must convert, pay taxes (Jizya***, or die.

No. There is/was no requirement to convert to Islam to co-exist in a an Islamic structure, and certainly no rule that they must die. State of war is of course a different condition.

Non-muslims were taxed? Correct. But that was not any different then what was going on outside the Islamic world. In terms of Christianity, you do not need to go beyond what they had done in, what is now, your own country, or say South America. Yeah, we are matured now, but never mind that we decimated your population and culture. That was just a past. We are all good guys now.

Anyhow, up until around mid 1700, to be able to work within the Ottoman State (say as a cleric or an engineer) one had to convert to Islam. Although this could be interpreted from belief point of view, it actually had a very practical reason too, and this is no way different than today, for example, me not being able to do certain works for MOD (Ministry of Defence) because I am a dual national.

However, in Ottomans this rule was done away with as the state realised that they were not able to attract high calibre engineers from the West. So, one was perfectly able to work for the Ottoman State as a non-muslim, and able to command big buck salaries and privileges.

**** I recall when reading the historical text about the Tripoli Pirates, western sailors who were captured and refused to convert to Islam, were often made slaves.

Correct. But would you like to expand on this a little a bit more that what the Christian world was doing at the same time?

I can go on and on about this Islam bashing. But, all I would like to say is that, a person of your calibre should move away from these cliché hear says and dive in a bit deeper into the subject matter.

 

[JohnRoberts]

No. There is/was no requirement to convert to Islam to co-exist in a an Islamic structure, and certainly no rule that they must die. State of war is of course a different condition.

Non-muslims were taxed? Correct. But that was not any different then what was going on outside the Islamic world. In terms of Christianity, you do not need to go beyond what they have done in, what is now, your own country, or say South America. Yeah, we matured now, but never mind that we decimated your population and culture. That was just a past. We are all good guys now.

Anyhow, up until around mid 1700, to be able to work within the Ottoman State (say as a cleric or engineer) one had to convert to Islam. Although this could be interpreted from belief point of view, it actually had a very practical reason too, and this is no way different than today, for example, me not being able to do certain for MOD (Ministry of Defence) because I am a dual national.

However, in Ottomans this rule was done away with as the state realised that they were not able to attract high calibre engineers from the West. So, one was perfectly able to work for the Ottoman State as a non-muslim, and able to command big buck salaries and privileges.


Correct. But would you like to expand on this a little a bit more that what the Christian world was doing at the same time?

I can go on and on about this Islam bashing. But, all I would like to say is that, a person of your calibre should move away from these cliché hear says and dive in a bit deeper into the subject matter.

your pushback and history is noted... I am not familiar with the "ottomans"***. This morning a read another distinction drawn between islam and islamism. Certainly I have heard islam used as an excuse for horrific things. I am not supporting any religious leadership.

I am searching for a better future path from here.

Can we please stop teaching children to hate ? They aren't born with hate in their hearts.

JR

*** I recall the Ottoman Empire from world history, just not as an ideology or religion.

 

[crazydoc]

Can we please stop teaching children to hate ? They aren't born with hate in their hearts.

There's a bunch of christians that might disagree.

 

[Tubetec]

What about the western coalition going into Iraq under a false pretext for war and killing hundreds of thousands of people in the process , Afganistan and the Arab Spring displaced millions of people who ended up coming to Europe for refuge and have now added fuel to the hard right fires burning in our own backyard , thats not what I call matured or coexisting peacefully . Americas foreign policy has been an absolute shambles since the end of WW2 ,its own self interest paved the way for atrocity after atrocity, yet many remain fully convinced it was justified , E pluribus unum , in God we trust , onward christian soldiers .

 

[JohnRoberts]

IMO children are born innocent with the excerption of evolutionary programming to distrust strangers. Adults teach them to hate.
===
"Original sin" is a perversion of religion, trying to control the sheeple with guilt.
===

@Tubetec I don't see any suggestions for how to improve our future... just more whataboutism...

JR

 

[cyrano]

Well, friends have four kids. Three are well behaved. The fourth one committed his first robbery when he was 12. Been a wild child all the time. When he was 21, he met the right girl. She wouldn't have anything to do with him, unless he cleaned up his act. He did. They've been together ever since and he stopped being a wild one. He's in his forties now and runs a successful business.

Born innocent? Not in his case.

Kids don't have a "natural" distrust for strangers. On the contrary. Most young kids trust anyone with anything. A few trust nobody, not even their mum.

 

[Tubetec]

Distrust of strangers varies a lot depending on the territory and history ,
In general coastal cities and towns are more accepting of outsiders by virtue of trade via the sea .
Isolated inland places tend to be a tougher nut to crack for the outsider .

I dont agree that kids are born with a distrust of strangers ,but if their trust is broken by the people closest to them early on it certainly can colour their outlook on life in negative ways later .

I tend not to believe in the 'born bad' theory either , who knows , maybe a traumatic childbirth can effect a persons outlook later in life , without them even having any real memories of it .

I was a bit of wild child myself ,lucky I wasnt born into criminality , my mother handled disicplene mostly , if I f**ked up she'd take me aside ,explain the reasons why my behaviour was unnacceptable and draw a line under it . She often kept stuff hidden from my adopted dad because she knew his military style disciplene was bullshit ,by the time I was 15 I was ready to stand up against it , the captain didnt take that well at all ,started raising a hand with increasing levels of violence and he got his ass booted out the door soon after .

In later years me and my dad get on reasonably well again and through concerted dialogue I finally got him to speak about his own childhood experience which was very tough ,difficult and all as those convos were , we both came out with a better understanding of why the cards fell the way they did .
I was always brazenly outspoken about what I was thinking and feeling , nothings changed in that respect , I was lucky enough to be offered councilling along the way and it worked for me .
My brother wasnt nearly so good at expressing himself and suffered bullying in silence for years , ultimately displaying a propensity for violence the same as his biological father once did .

 

[cyrano]

Trauma at birth (and even before) is a reason for behavioral problems allright, but even that doesn't necessarily lead to distrust. It usually leads to self-destructive behavior.

I once visited a refugee family with three kids. One was born while the hospital was being bombarded. That kid banged his fists on the glass kitchen door at irregular intervals for no reason. School wouldn't have him around. No treatment seemed to help. The two other kids didn't have any problems.

 

[Tubetec]

Scarey stuff alright , in the context of the middle east .

 

[JohnRoberts]

and we have pivoted to blaming the children? and/or blaming the _____?
===
Of course there is a very tiny fraction of the population born with sundry mental imbalances that can reduce their inhibition to suppress bad impulses, or worse. Such imbalances can lead to anti-social behavior.
===

I am trying to speak in broad generalities. My judgement is that most children are born innocent, without any hate in their hearts. Most (?) haters are taught to hate by adults, who were also most likely taught to hate by other adults.

Can we please figure out how to stop teaching our children hate.

JR

PS; The distrust of strangers dates back to our early hunter-gatherer days where some of our distant ancestors were punished with death for not being cautious enough about strangers. Our cautious ancestors survived to pass along their genome to us. By now any such benefit from distrusting strangers is surely much diluted and being bred out of our genome.

 

[cyrano]

There is no distrust of strangers in young children, and even animals. Numerous observations of baby animals being adopted by other species have been made. Even predators adopting what they would normally consider a meal. Of course, this only happens in the right circumstances. If the predator is very hungry, the infant will be a meal.

But as you say, hate has been taught by parents or others bringing up the children. Just like a predator needs to be taught to be a predator. AFAIK, happens mostly with mammals and birds. Haven't seen any examples of reptiles adopting other species, fi.

So we land again at the "Us and them" sentiment. Amplified by competition and nationalism. It doesn't matter if that is economic competition, sports or any other. Of course, the most powerful amplifier is violence and war. If you grow up in a war zone, parents aren't even needed to hate the enemy.

"Divide and rule" still is an important strategy.

 

[JohnRoberts]

There is no distrust of strangers in young children, and even animals. Numerous observations of baby animals being adopted by other species have been made. Even predators adopting what they would normally consider a meal. Of course, this only happens in the right circumstances. If the predator is very hungry, the infant will be a meal.

I repeat again, this is only a weak instinct (in humans) at this point.

I observe some actual animal behavior with my neighbors too many stray cats. Many of them are very distrustful of strangers (like me). Of the dozen or so cats only two or three allow me to pet them. One of those "friendly" cats is very old. Yesterday while I was over there talking with my neighbor, I sat in the chair right next to the feed bowl, so all the younger, stronger, cats would keep their distance and let the old cat eat in relative peace.

Scooter, the one stray cat who adopted me, is still missing and likely dead from either dogs or traffic.

But as you say, hate has been taught by parents or others bringing up the children. Just like a predator needs to be taught to be a predator. AFAIK, happens mostly with mammals and birds. Haven't seen any examples of reptiles adopting other species, fi.

Among the stray cats the females appear to be the natural hunters. I have never seen momma cats teaching the young cats to hunt, but that does not mean they don't. Despite having copious feed, they still hunt small animals and whatever.

So we land again at the "Us and them" sentiment.

What do you mean "we". I am trying hard to be inclusive, saying that "all" children are born innocent without hate in their hearts.

If you look at the world through an us/them filter, that will be all that you see.

Amplified by competition and nationalism. It doesn't matter if that is economic competition, sports or any other. Of course, the most powerful amplifier is violence and war. If you grow up in a war zone, parents aren't even needed to hate the enemy.

"Divide and rule" still is an important strategy.

I am still searching for reductions in the bad programming our children receive, from misguided adults. My list is longer than yours and probably more complicated. Another reason why I find it hard to be very optimistic.

JR

 

[cyrano]

Don't worry about the kids. Kids are very flexible. What you need to do, is set them free. Don't be the nag that keeps them from exploring the world. Sure, it's a dangerous world out there, but keeping them inside will make it even more dangerous.

That will make them trust you even more. They'll ask the inconvenient questions. Be honest, you don't need to have an answer to all questions.

Cats are weird. No two are even remotely alike. I grew up on a farm, where cats and dogs were friends. We had between two and six cats around. They were free, so it was hard to tell how many we actually had at one moment. Some went on a trip and showed up six months later, with the scars from numerous fights.

PS "We" as all people on earth, or even all people on this forum. Are my semantics that bad that you feel personally touched?

 

[JohnRoberts]

I don't worry about the kids, I worry about what adults with bad intentions turn them into.... bad adults.

JR

 

[scott2000]

Among the stray cats the females appear to be the natural hunters

My next door neighbor saw this little one a couple of weeks ago about 20 yards from our backyards...