looking for capacitor "inverse-derating" reference

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mikep

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Feb 18, 2006
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Some capacitor manufacturers spec a usable life which is much greater than the full-load life at an operating point below rated maximums. For instance CDE type 381EL:
http://www.cde.com/catalogs/381EL.pdf

I have a couple of handbooks that cover the standard way to derate a spec for harsh conditions, elevated Temp, etc, but have never seen any guidelines to go the other way. I realize that every Cap has different chemistry that will change the aging profile, but still these has to be something written on the subject. Mass market switching PSU makers must do this kind of calculation constantly.

mike p
 
I have a couple of handbooks that cover the standard way to derate a spec for elevated temperature.
So it seems pretty straightforward to me that you could use that formula to get an estimate for the other direction. E.g. if live expectation halves at 10° more temperature it will double at 10° less...

Samuel
 
Thank you Samuel, yes I am aware of that "rule of thumb". it is indeed a doubbling in life for every 10 deg C reduction in temp. I wondered if there is a more academic treatment of the subject. I would like to be able to quantify the risk involved.
 
I would not assume such straight direct generalizations if other manufacturers don't specify them.
 
Philips had some white papers on capacitors circulating for a while.

I had to learn more than I wanted to know (half-kidding) about ceramic cap lifetime versus voltage when Harman was having a crisis with some that were turning into little ceramic heaters a while back. The theory in this case was emphatically not well-fitted to the Arrhenius exponential activation-energy-based approach. But it may work better for 'lytics.
 
> a more academic treatment

Academics are OK, even if I work for some.

But capacitors are a combination of theory and manufacturing reality. Your 99.9% pure aluminum... what's that other 0.1% crap? Is it the same crap as the foil you bought last year? Is 500ppm copper benign? Is 2ppm thorium toxic to the oxide? Did Joe sneeze in the vat of electrolyte?

You find out by tests. You could run a 7-year test before selling the caps from that batch, but that does not work well because of inventory capital and inventory shelf-rot. The only practical test is to put them in an oven for 7-week and 7-month testing, and pray that Arrhenius was right. Field experience says it is usually true-enough for small changes like 20degC. With the long life of modern caps, it is impractical to wait hundreds of thousands of hours to verify the low-temp life: by the time you have confirmation, the factory has changed the product so much you can't get the exact-same caps and you can't be sure some low-temp worm has not snuck into the new product.

And obviously the 10degC rule does not extend to infinity. An older Compaq PC in an unheated garage in the northern US will fail to start because the caps ESR is too high for the switcher, but 20 minutes of sitting stalled and an off/on cycle will bring it up. Perhaps the caps "meet specs" but Compaq did not design for this environment. Or they tested new caps in a cold-room, but did not realize that cold-ESR would rise over time (or didn't care after the warranty period). It is not a hard failure, but if you NEED the PC *now*, it is a failure. OTOH, a simple passive PSU with these high-ESR caps would "work" with extra ripple which might decline by the time you are ready to record... not a practical failure.

> I would like to be able to quantify the risk involved.

If you have a big budget, the cap-makers would like you to call their engineers. They don't want you to DIY a guesstimate, buy their caps, be wrong, and get unhappy. The major makers have guys who think caps all day long.

If you have a little budget, call. You might reach a guy who would be thrilled to talk about caps (cap-engineer must be a lonely life). But respect that he has to justify his time to a company which is barely profitable in these cost-cutting times.

Over at Hoffman's forum there is a late-30s Rickenbacker guitar amp with original caps. It may have hundreds of hours at 70C, and obviously 70 years= 600,000 hours at ~~25C no-volt. Note however that the caps could be way down on original value and still "work", because it has choke and hum-buck in addition to just capacitors. OTOH, a 1937 PA amp I had, the caps were dead-open; however it showed signs of long hot use.
 
Note as well that 'failure" needs to be well-defined. It might mean reaching out-of-spec on capacitance, ESR, etc. It might mean (but usually doesn't) blowing up and spewing all over the vicinity.

A test for foil and electrolyte quality that doesn't take too long: see where the lytic "zeners"---use a pretty good-sized resistor from a PS and crank it up. When I was in another cap crisis, this time with lytics, I found that the better -con caps (Nichi- Ruby- United Chemi-) tended to support maybe about 100uA at of order 35V when the cap was rated for 16V. Not-so-good caps were already leaking like crazy at the rated voltage.
 
thanks for the input. (I think) I have cap failure pretty well defined in this application (which I really cant talk about). I ended up paralleling film caps to help with high freq esr at very low temps, and they should provide just barely enough capacitance for the circuit to "work" with the electros completely degraded (removed), though some of the specs will be out.

mike p
 
I actually use alot of low voltage polymer caps, but I need 400VDC, 340uF >100,000 hr MTBF. I settled on panasonic TS-ED, two 200V parts in series with "equalizing resistors". the circuit will work down to 3.5uF (with the afformentioned film caps for HF ESR reduction), 99% degradation in C should take a while. I did find this white paper, for anyone that is interested:
http://www.magnetmail.net/images/clients/DFR_/attach/Uprating_Electrolytic_Capacitors.pdf

mike p
 
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