Mic Parts S-87 upgrade (capsule or?)

[andivax]

Hi guys, noob here! )
I just finished my first DIY which is Microphone parts S-87.
After soldering I have compared it with TLM103 ( just for fun), U87 vintage from 1970-s and U87 which Georg Neumann built himself. Both U87 in the great shape, serviced by best technitian in my country.
In comparison with Georg U87's S-87 has more lows (it's obvious on acoustic guitar), has bump on 8 kHz and dip on 6 kHz.
Highs is almost there (I have used 5600 capacitor in S-87 build to tame highs, 0.01 was too much). Both U87's have saturation which is not exist in transformless S-87.
I LOVE S-87 but it's always a way to make something better, so...
1. Is it worth to change it's capsule to 87 from Maiku or ADK or even BeezNees? Matt from Microphone parts said he is not recommended doing this. Why? No answer.
2. My dream is to have 251 type mic. So there is an options. Get T-12 from Microphone parts (414 + transformer). Get V-251 which is soldout and will be about 1500$ with shipment and taxes. Or get their RK-12 capsule and put it in S-87 (Matt said it's OK). But may be I should get Meiku/ADK/Tim Campbell capsule? Still don't know how it fits Shoeps schematic in S-87.

Guys please point me in the right direction, especially in that capsule thing!

PS If you are interested I can that mics comparison between S-87, U87's and 103.

Thank you in advance!!!

 

[kingkorg]

This is no easy task for several reasons. To nail 100% u87 sound you need exact same headbasket and same performing capsule. Simply because headbasket is part of the accoustic equation. Literally millimeters in difference make measurable changes in response. Try finding rode nt2s(first model) with accurate headbasket shape.

I haven't found any capsule so far that performs exactly as the original. Very close is actually a capsule found in AKG perception p420 and p400. But they blew it with the circuit and headbasket. Maybe get hold of one of those.

Heiserman is described by many as being brighter. And Maiku is rebranded china capsule, not that different from capsule you already have. Same goes for ADK.

Once you assemble your u87 you need to make adjustments to the circuit to match u87 response. You need decent acoustic measurement setup. S87 circuit won't work here becouse it's wrong type of the circuit. You need to be able to tune LF response by adjusting feedback network. S87 doesn't have it and that is the reason it has too much low end.

As for the 251 type of mic, it's the same regarding the headbasket. Fortunately there are some good capsules available, one of the best being from Tim Campbell. Maiku, MP and others don't have real CT12 type of capsule. You won't get anywhere by using those. But for 251 you need to decide what type of 251 sound you want and provide info to the capsule manufacturer because the capsule response vary a lot depending on the tuning. This is the reason why there are so many different sounding c12 and 251 mics.

Welcome to the rabbit hole, this is probably one of the toughest questions you could have asked. And beware of the companies that do nothing else but rebrand existing oem capsules. Such as Microphone Parts, ADK, Maiku, Peluso.... Some of the legit capsule manufacturers are 797 audio, 3u audio, Tim Campbell, OPR, Heisermann, Beezneez, Thiersch.

There has been a lot of talk about "tuning the diaphragms" or skinning the capsules in order to tune them. This is just pure BS, because capsules don't get tuned by altering the diaphragms. Yes they are a part of equation, and different materials, tension, do affect the sound but the absolute key is accurately produced backplate! So stay away from manufacturers who do their "in-house quality controll" of oem capsules (microphone parts) or "tune" readily available oem capsules (Peluso, Maiku).

Key element is "aging" or "stabilizing" of the diaphragm. If this is not done properly the mic you love right now might sound differently in couple of months, or in a different country, area(humidity), or after being transported on a plane (air pressure). There is no way of knowing if these "quality controll" or "skinning" techniques are properly done by these people. And is not easy to do. I'm not even going to mention clean room process.

 

[soliloqueen]

maiku and (iirc) adk are both reskinned 3u backplates. might be cheaper just to get one of those

edit:
you beat me by SECONDS

 

[soliloqueen]

AA

To be fair, it was actually AA that sent them the first k47 capsule sample to that factory and supervised the creation of their k47 replica capsule, so isn't entirely accurate to say AA just rebrands OEM capsules. The design the factory has sold OEM for about a decade now is in fact a design AA workshopped themselves that has since become genercized.

 

[kingkorg]

Ok, sorry, i will edit that. Wasn't aware. Just noticed that capsule is everywhere now.

Edit:
By far easiest way to get u87 sound if you are an absolute noob, is to use a mic with a decent k67 capsule, and do eq match with Voxengo curveEQ recording pink noise under exactly same conditions in a reasonably dead room against real u87. Use that curve with your mic every time. Kinda like Slate does with VMS. You can use your s87. I managed to fool several top mastering engineers this way.

There is no difference if you do the eq-ing in the mic, which u87 does, or later. Sound wise at least. Curve eq will compensate for slight differences caused by construction both of the capsule and surroundings. Off axis should be similar as the mechanisms of the capsule operation is the same - k67.

I know it sounds like cheating, or that some might think it doesn't work but it does. To the point it's not even worth arguing.

 

[andivax]

Thank you for fast feedback, guys!
1. I can use EQ in DAW to match my S-87 to U87 since I have various recordings of both and I already matched it by the way. The problem is it gives me let's say 80% of the sound. I fear it's not only frequency domain but also time domain. Black magic ))
So I will stick with the stock capsule in S-87 because of your information guys. Thank you!
2. Matt from Microphone parts said V-251 kits will be available in 5 month which is disaster for me. I am thinking about his T-12 kit instead of V-251. I've hear comparison of 12-251 with the real 251 and Warm Audio. WA is nahhhh. 12-251 was OK. The problem is that comparisons between T-12 and V-251 just not exists. Matt claims he sold 15000 kits and somehow no quality demos of both mics on YouTube. Zero comparisons between T-12 and V-251. In the YouTube comments I have seen info that T-12 just doesn't sound as sweet on highs as V-251. And that's all (((
3. I see 3U audio offers Warble MK IV which is their attempt to clone 251. Is it better alternative to Micparts V-251 or T-12?

Thank you for your help guys!!!

 

[RuudNL]

a "U87 which Georg Neumann built himself."

 

[andivax]

a "U87 which Georg Neumann built himself."

That's what pro technitian said based on serial and internals.

 

[andivax]

Here is my RK-87 FR by the way

 

[RuudNL]

a "U87 which Georg Neumann built himself."

I think you mean the Neumann company! Otherwise it must be a quite old microphone, since Georg Neumann died in 1976, but I doubt that Georg built your microphone 'himself'.

 

[andivax]

I think you mean the Neumann company! Otherwise it must be a quite old microphone, since Georg Neumann died in 1976, but I doubt that Georg built your microphone 'himself'.

I will ask technitian about details.
U87 released in 1967, right?

 

[kingkorg]

View attachment 89049
Here is my RK-87 FR by the way

It should have that much attenuation in low end instead of boost. If that is response of the capsule it self it lacks high end. If in s87 circuit than it's just about perfect.

 

[amplexus]

To be fair, it was actually AA that sent them the first k47 capsule sample to that factory and supervised the creation of their k47 replica capsule, so isn't entirely accurate to say AA just rebrands OEM capsules. The design the factory has sold OEM for about a decade now is in fact a design AA workshopped themselves that has since become genercized.

My understanding is that this is what Peluso does as well, and that comes from some inside knowledge. I believe (but haven’t had confirmed personally) that AA and Peluso share many of the same backplates/toolings. Its only the skinning done differently.

I do know for a fact that Peluso capsules are skinned/tuned/processed in the US. Regardless of what other argument one may make, calling that whole process a “rebranded chinese capsule” is disingenuous at best.

 

[kingkorg]

I am being disingenuous at best? And you are praising a guy who makes a 2700$ 47 style mic with wrong type of capsule? And he works with capsules? K67 in u47 type of mic? Peluso has no idea what he is doing.

 

[andivax]

I am being disingenuous at best? And you are praising a guy who makes a 2700$ 47 style mic with wrong type of capsule? And he works with capsules? K67 in u47 type of mic? Peluso has no idea what he is doing.

What's wrong with this capsule?
And what is the tube? Is it that fake Telefunken vf14 with nuvistor inside?

 

[kingkorg]

If i remember correctly it's ef14. The circuit is ok. But the capsule is k67 which has nothing in common with k47 which should be there. K47 is single backplate, has "through holes" that connects front and back diaphragms. It's inherently hypercardioid. K67 has none of these, and is cardioid, considerably brighter, has different proximity effect and can not be "tuned" to perform as k47 because of dimensions and physical limitations. I have measured this one as well, and it performs exactly the same as any other capsule of this origin and design. It's a stock chinese oem capsule.

 

[andivax]

If i remember correctly it's ef14. The circuit is ok. But the capsule is k67 which has nothing in common with k47 which should be there. K47 is single backplate, has "through holes" that connects front and back diaphragms. It's inherently hypercardioid. K67 has none of these, and is cardioid, considerably brighter, has different proximity effect and can not be "tuned" to perform as k47 because of dimensions and physical limitations. I have measured this one as well, and it performs exactly the same as any other capsule of this origin and design. It's a stock chinese oem capsule.

Damn. Even LE version should have proper capsule.

 

[kingkorg]

LE doesn't stand for lower end in this case, its kind of top notch limited edition stuff. This is one of his premium models. And sorry the price on Peluso site is 3234$.

 

[andivax]

LE doesn't stand for lower end in this case, its kind of top notch limited edition stuff. This is one of his premium models.

OMG that's very bad.
Interesting where he got the mic body. It's his product or he uses 3rd party mic bodies.

 

[kingkorg]

3rd party, and psu is Tbone psu found on Thomman for 60€.