Mic Pre Designs - A Discussion

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> Gain, of course, controls your overall output level/voltage.

No!

Don't confuse gain and level. You can have low gain with high levels, or high gain and still not have high levels.

In a mike-amp, your output level is fixed (roughly) by the sensitivity of the next stage (tape-deck input, etc). The gain sets the input level needed to get that desired output level. The whole point of the gain knob is so you get +4dBm whether the gig is ribbons on harpsichord or 414s on Fender amp. A mike amp is semi-fixed output, highly variable input.

> when high gains are required (like in mic preamps where you're doing 50-70dB) slew rates are ABSOLUTELY critical... the higher the amp gain, and the higher the frequency you want to reproduce the faster the slew rate must be.

In audio systems, slew rate is almost always about output stage levels. It does not matter how you got to that level: strong source and low gain, or weak source and large gain. (In a fixed-compensation amplifer, that is.)

Jung's old tests suggest you need at least 1V/μS per Volt of output signal level (i.e. you need to be able to slew in less than a μS) for "unimpaired" audio. Hence a 741 is not a bad amp if your signal levels never exceed a volt. The 5532 and TL071 series amps with >5V/μS have given generally excellent performance with 1.23V nominal (5-10V peak) level structures.

We mostly-only use fixed-compensation unity-gain amps. You can't put a 30pFd cap on a front panel or gang it with a pot. However if a fixed-gain stage will -only- be used at higher gains, you can choose to use a decompensated amp. A 741 is a 301 with a 30pFd cap. If you put a 3pFd cap on a 301, it is unstable for gains of less than 10, but is also 10 times faster, making a 301 a respectable audio amp for slewing signals approaching voltage-clipping, whereas a 741 has to be held to much less than clipping level or it will cream cymbals.

There is one variable-compensation topology. Fashion now calls it "current feedback", a bad name. But long before chip makers discovered it, microphone amp designers were doing it. The classic transformerless mike preamp with a variable resistor between two emitters is "current feedback". Frequency response, stability, and output slew rate change little over a wide range of gain.

I don't understand your obsession with RF filtering at inputs and outputs. If you live under a radio tower, move!. Sometimes you can't, and sometimes you have to filter. Commercial gear usually does because they can't know what their customers have to do. But RF filtering always degrades audio. Maybe insignificantly, but sometimes it bites. Be sure you need it, and be sure filtering is the best solution. FWIW: while I always consider the issue, I rarely do much about it except be sure the gain response is smoothly declining well into the MHz.

> some variable input impedances. I have to admit I really love that part of my VIPRE pre-amp.

Simple variable impedance can't be wonderful. The Vipre must be doing something more. Anyway, if the Vipre is good, why waste time doing something else? It is about the music, not the gear.
 
I'm a newbie in this forum, so please forgive me if I step on anyone's toes...

One distinction that needs to be drawn is that between "slew rate" and "rise time", two terms which have been used quite sloppily over the past twenty years or so. "Slew rate" refers to the speed with which an electronic circuit's signal can go positive or negative when it is engaging in "slewing behavior", a specific type of distortion-generating behavior, usually caused when a gain device runs out of current to charge a capacitor someplace in the circuit. Slewing behavior is often found in IC opamps which are operated without bandlimiting.

It's not inevitable, however; put a properly-sized capacitor in parallel with the opamp's feedback resistor and the device cannot slew, because its risetime is limited by the bandlimiting. At that point, talking about slew rate becomes misleading.

Similarly, talking about the slew rate for, say, a single tube stage is meaningless. It doesn't slew; its rise time is limited by the bandlimiting caused by its output impedance and the capacitance of the next stage (plus strays of course).

This is a side issue, yes, but the original poster talked about wanting to adjust the slew rate of a preamp, and in practical terms, what's really being discussed is adjusting the high-frequency bandwidth. The slew rate, if the circuit is capable of slewing, should be designed sufficiently higher than the maximum desired bandwidth that slewing behavior never occurs.

Peace,
Paul
 
Welcome to the forum Mr Paul Stamler! I respect your years of experience designing and building microphone preamps. I built your your 'op amp based' mic preamp that appeared in Audio Amateur magazine. I use it regularly and regard it as highly as I do my Great River preamp. I look forward to your contributions to this forum.
 
[quote author="PRR"]> I don't understand your obsession with RF filtering at inputs and outputs. If you live under a radio tower, move!. Sometimes you can't, and sometimes you have to filter. Commercial gear usually does because they can't know what their customers have to do. But RF filtering always degrades audio. Maybe insignificantly, but sometimes it bites. Be sure you need it, and be sure filtering is the best solution. FWIW: while I always consider the issue, I rarely do much about it except be sure the gain response is smoothly declining well into the MHz. [/quote]

I have to respectfully disagree. Many of us record in more than one place, and there's RF pollution all over. Radio towers, pager towers, cell-phone towers, cordless phones, even RF-coupled cordless keyboards. RFI is an issue even if you don't hear a DJ yammering over your audio. Putting in good RF-proofing (which doesn't have to degrade the audio in a well-designed circuit where it's one of the design goals from the beginning) is the prudent thing to do, and I find gear designed with good RF-proofing almost always sounds better than gear that's not.

Peace,
Paul
 
[quote author="kornowsd"]1) Create a mic preamp that's as absolutely "clean" as possible - with no coloration, at all.

2) Create a mic preamp that has some variable input impedances. I have to admit I really love that part of my VIPRE pre-amp. It does some amazing things to many of the mic's that I own.[/quote]
These two goals would seem to be in opposition to one another, unless you are saying that there is a specific loading that you like for each mic. The changes that you would hear by changing the i/p impedance around for a specific mic would be "coloration".
 
[quote author="Carl_Huff"] Welcome to the forum Mr Paul Stamler! [/quote]
yes
me too
I am late joining this topic and have no time to contribute anything.
but
I am enjoying it and so I steal a moment to get a read in.

good luck with the circle of life that is ... the mic-pre ... :green:
 
> dumb slew rate down to frequency response so it will fit in my tiny brain. Applies most of the time.

In high-feedback amps, it never does.

Consider the 741 at unity gain and +/-15V rails. Small signal frequency response is almost 1MHz (1,000KHz). Large (10V peak) signals turn to triangles by 10KHz and then fade away to only 0.1V peak at 1MHz.

You can do little signals fast, but you can't do big signals fast.

It is harder to do the same with tubes or FETs, but you can. I have a tube Fisher that demonstrates triangular slew. Not so much stock, but when hot-rodded by strapping to unity gain and severely flogged. The Burr Brown Julie hollowstate op-amps would also show slewing.
 

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