Moar No0bish queries about preamp kits...

[Commander Fluffypants]

And yes, I've been doing searches and visiting websites and I've got a LOT of information from all corners of the audio and DIY worlds... including some of you who may be reading this.

As I don't really know what I'm talking about, some of my questions may be flawed. Feel free to set that straight. I'm looking to learn.

I'm thinking about building some pres. I am determined to build some press. I was captivated by the CAPI threads at GS. However (and I don't really know why, except that I like the DESCRIPTIONS of them better than the descriptions of API's...) I'm thinking I want to do some Neve style pres.

I've been looking at the Seventh Circle stuff. It seems very doable for an inexperienced DIYer. But as I read various things in various corners of the web, I see that some people are really into the  51x format. It seems that Neveish things for 51x are LOT more expensive than they are for Seventh Circle, and possibly more complicated to build. Something I've noticed is that the "real" Neves and the "more faithful" clones operate at a higher voltage. I don't believe that that is the case with the Seventh Circle stuff. One question: does it matter?

I like that the 51x stuff would allow me to use anything that's available in 500 series. Eventually, I might like to build things other than pres, or have several different kinds of pres, and I see that advantage with the 51x.

Other questions are not so specific... Why should I choose Seventh Circle over 51x or vice versa?

Background:

I'm a musician. Decades of experience live, touring, and recording. I'm a reluctant engineer. I started a project studio so I could deal with the art of recording. Mostly, I want to produce; to point imperiously and demand that the artist not double dip on that bridge, and suggest certain instrumentations and/or session musicians to complement the songs. Engineering is the price of admission... and the price is high and my engineering ears are developing.

I have some decent microphones. I'm continually moving things around in my room to learn how to best take advantage of it (or, more accurately, how to hide it...) I'm ready to upgrade to something better than Syteks and Mackies and BLA pres.

What advice do you have? Which way should I go? I'm not afraid of going slow and taking on tough builds, although I understand that you might advise me to stay away from certain things no matter how I cautious I might INTEND to be. Mostly, I'm looking to improve the sound of my rig and get to work making music.

Thanks, and apologies if you're tired of having this kind of conversation over and over again with No0bs...

 

[JohnRoberts]

This may not be the popular wisdom or popular to say to a bunch of DIYers but there are far larger differences between your microphones than your mic preamps. Preamps have been becoming more linear and easier to replicate (nowadays you can buy off the shelf ICs that work as good or better than the SOTA from a couple decades ago.)

Of course opinions vary but you can execute a very decent preamp (better than your mics) from one of the handful of standard chip sets. These boilerplate designs have been discussed here so how hard did you search the topic here?

JR

 

[Commander Fluffypants]

It's possible that I just don't know how to search to get the answer I'm looking for, but I've searched here and GS and I've Googled my way to TapeOp and other places and I've found a LOT of information on all kinds of things, including the topics where some say preamp differences are over rated. I've read about all kinds of DIY projects. In terms of preamps, I've read many threads where people describe how much they love their builds, whether it be Seventh Circle, AML, CAPI, Drip, etc. What I HAVEN'T been able to glean from all of this is the direction I should take. That's why I gave you a bit on my background. I don't know what's best for my purposes. If I build something that's proprietary (SC) will I regret it later? Are CAPI and AML and 51x ultimately too expensive or difficult or time consuming to be worth it for someone like me?

Thank you again for your time responding to my questions, and also thank you (everyone) for the wealth of DIY  information that I've been trying to digest for the past few months.

 

[PRR]

> I like the DESCRIPTIONS of them better

I think there are people who just love to put words in the blender and post puff.

The API-lovers have been at it a bit longer than 7th Circle.

> operate at a higher voltage. ...does it matter?

Only if you listen by putting your tongue across the wires.

There are other puff-posters who wax eloquent about High Current design.

I'm not sure there is much wrong with the Mackie preamps. Yes, sometimes I've come right off the channel into the recorder to avoid going through dozens of 2-bit amps in EQ and bus and master sections; but this isn't the 1980s and the shrill BiFet brand or the Crate hissers.

BTW: DIY is NOT always cheaper. If you have valuable talent in other work, DIY may be a waste of your time/money.

> how to search to get the answer I'm looking for

There isn't "an answer".

> moving things around in my room

Mike placement and room sound count for more than gear lust.

> I want to produce; to point imperiously and demand that the artist

This is the key for MUSIC, not "recording".

 

[jplebre]

Well, PRR said it all.

To attempt at DIY, you got to ask yourself if you have the patience for:
1 - reading about it before building, to make sure you order the right parts, right quantities
2 - build, checking, doublechecking, triplechecking your steps
3 - callibration, which in some builds can be a pain specially if you don't have the right tools
4 - debugging. And this can be an afternoon, or days.

Again, agreeing to both john and PRR, if you are having troubles with your pre's, I'm pretty sure gustav (PCBgrinder - check him on facebook) upcoming preamp based on the THAT will actually be outperforming many pre's and be cheap as peanuts to build. Maybe something worth to have a look http://www.thatcorp.com/press34.shtml
It will most likely not have the character of transformers or release as much heath but may be a very good place to start and you may be surprised (actually, I'm in for a pair to give them a go, but I'm actually prepared to build 16 and rack them up for a recording rig).

Are CAPI and AML and 51x ultimately too expensive or difficult or time consuming to be worth it for someone like me?

If CAPI is expensive? no. specially if you already have a 500 rack. AML can get expensive. 51x (again, IMHO) only becomes feasible if you plan on having 2 racks. 1 rack and double PSU is the same price, roughly, as the API one. Adding a second rack is only £300 more. And that's when it shines.

I would say give it a go if you have 51x/500 rack. It can't hurt. If you want something for fun, get a gsll/1176 to start with. or a ssl 9k (based on ssl 9k) which is cheap to booth to do if you have an enclosure.

Cheers!

 

[Spiritworks]

I'm much more of a good assembler, rather than a designer/builder. While I have a basic understanding of what the parts do, how they interact, etc., I've never properly learned the electronics engineering of this whole wonderful world of audio. That said, I've had great experiences building pre-packaged kits which I've learned about mostly from this forum. I've built the 51x rack & power supply & the Sound Skulptor rack and power supply, along with preamps from Five Fish, Sound Skulptor and a few other projects. None were difficult, but you have to be well organised and patient. The results have been very rewarding for me. But, like others have mentioned, don't get into building electronics to save time or money.

 

[Commander Fluffypants]

Thank you all! I am amused that there is no obvious recommendation. I do understand it, though.

So, one person says that the voltage difference isn't significant. That's good to hear.

I DO have the patience! This actually seems like fun, although I see PLENTY of opportunities for frustration. In the past, I've (usually, out of nece$$ity...) learned to do things like auto repair and gardening. While there is little that will translate from other endeavors, I do at least have experience diving into new things and attaining some level of competence.

I've been reading about this for months now.

Some of my thoughts/concerns...

It seems that, for my current capabilities, a DIY project needs to have a complete kit or easy way to get all of the correct parts. It also needs to have comprehensive instructions; as close to "paint by numbers" as possible.

I don't have a 500 rack. As noted, the 51x is relatively inexpensive only when you're filling your SECOND rack. It really seems like something I want to do EVENTUALLY, but as a musician, I might be better off with something where I can get eight channels put together sooner and cheaper. On the other hand, the 51x and many of the modules for 500 series seem to be "as close to paint by numbers."

All of my press are in the clean, uncolored category. They are all very similar. BLA pres in a modded 002, Syteks, and a Mackie Onyx 800r. I'd like to start messing around with some other choices.

To further add to my confusion, I just spent the past coupe of hours reading about racking and modding Yamaha PM 1000 channels... This seems affordable, yet not so "paint by numbers."

I intend to do SOMETHING. I just can't quite figure out WHAT yet...

 

[JohnRoberts]

I think Rochey sells a kit based on TI chip set, and apparently Gustav is working a pre based on THAT corp chip set... Either one of those should be cost effective and better performance than your microphones. Maybe build one of each just to to keep it interesting.

There is whole sub forum here dedicated to preamps and there have been many discussions over the years about them.

JR

 

[zebra50]

I think Rochey sells a kit based on TI chip set, and apparently Gustav is working a pre based on THAT corp chip set...

Another good suggestions there from JR.

Rochey's Expat Eden is a very simple first build with good documentation. Highly recommended

http://expataudio.myshopify.com/collections/mic-pres/products/eden-microphone-preamplifier

... and it is an excellent preamp too with very low noise. I am very impressed with my pair.

I'm sure the THAT kit will be great too - I have scratch built preamps with the THAT preamp chips and they are in daily use.

My advice would be to pick something and dive in. You'll learn far more by doing it...

Stewart

 

[Rochey]

I think Rochey sells a kit based on TI chip set, and apparently Gustav is working a pre based on THAT corp chip set... Either one of those should be cost effective and better performance than your microphones. Maybe build one of each just to to keep it interesting.

There is whole sub forum here dedicated to preamps and there have been many discussions over the years about them.

JR

Thanks John, and Stewart!

CF, feel free to email me or pop on to the online store at ExpatAudio.com -- I'm online from time to time with a live chat option.

 

[zebra50]

I'm online from time to time with a live chat option.

I just saw the chat pop-up when I dropped by to grab the link - good skills!

 

[Rochey]

I'm online from time to time with a live chat option.

I just saw the chat pop-up when I dropped by to grab the link - good skills!

I get so gutted when noone wants to chat to me though

 

[ricardo]

The biggest, hardest part of DIY is making a box, drilling holes, sourcing knobs & bits, engraving front panel etc for a good looking job.

Those versed in the art can whip up preamps on perforated board that rivals fancy stuff on zillion layer PCBs.  (Sorry Rochey, though I actually hanker for your stuff cos the digital gain settings  )

The Seventh Circle stuff looks really good and use good bits too eg the gain switch he supplies.  There is good documentation & support.

He has loadsa different versions from old transformer Neve & Yank stuff, to modern THAT, to supa low noise Cohen.  That's likely to keep you happy ringing the changes if you think preamps make a difference ... at least until you fill one of his racks.

But if you want something good with as little fuss as possible, buy his rack and fill it with his THAT cards.  It'll be better than the Behringers & M-Audios if not quite Millenia Media.  For that you need his Cohen cards.

Maybe Rochey should do a deal with Seventh Circle to put his cards into their rack.

 

[Commander Fluffypants]

So now I've dug around on the Expat site as well as watched a couple of videos...

The Eden seems like it might be useful for my ribbons. It  seems that the guts are easy enough... almost complete, right? But that leaves me needing to make a case, etc. It's not a full kit like the CAPIs or SC's.

Also, it seems that the Eden is not a colored pre. The main reason I'm trying to get into this is to investigate what a colored pre can do for me.

I am thinking that the SC's might be the best match for me based on the fact that the kit is complete and I'm new to DIY. The CAPIs and 51x might also be a good match, but won't have a decent price per unit until I've built a LOT of them. My concern with the SC's is that I want to LIKE them when I'm done. Are the N72's really "Neveish"?

So... start with SC's and then move on to something else?

Once again, thanks to all of you.

 

[rob_gould]

It isn't cheap, but the EZ 1073 from Audio Maintenance is a complete kit, has the option to buy a premade case from another seller and has possibly the most comprehensive documentation of any DIY project I've seen.

The most important thing of course is that it sounds great; and is definitely 'coloured' if that's what you are looking for.

http://www.audiomaintenance.com/acatalog/kits.html

 

[JohnRoberts]

Also, it seems that the Eden is not a colored pre. The main reason I'm trying to get into this is to investigate what a colored pre can do for me.

Disregard my advice since my focus was on clean, linear, and accurate signal paths.

Good luck.

JR

 

[Rochey]

Stay tuned regarding cases.... Once the EA office is back up and running (moved office) I'll finish a prototype done with. Collective cases.

And yes, Eden is a clean Pre... Not ashamed of that

 

[Commander Fluffypants]

Also, it seems that the Eden is not a colored pre. The main reason I'm trying to get into this is to investigate what a colored pre can do for me.

Disregard my advice since my focus was on clean, linear, and accurate signal paths.

Good luck.

JR

I do appreciate all of your advice. Please don't take my indecision (or ignorance) as disrespect. I am trying to learn. Mostly I'm trying to make the sounds I get in my studio compete with the sounds I get in "real" studios.

 

[Commander Fluffypants]

Stay tuned regarding cases.... Once the EA office is back up and running (moved office) I'll finish a prototype done with. Collective cases.

And yes, Eden is a clean Pre... Not ashamed of that

I may want to try these eventually. Possibly soon after building a few colored pres.

 

[JohnRoberts]

Also, it seems that the Eden is not a colored pre. The main reason I'm trying to get into this is to investigate what a colored pre can do for me.

Disregard my advice since my focus was on clean, linear, and accurate signal paths.

Good luck.

JR

I do appreciate all of your advice. Please don't take my indecision (or ignorance) as disrespect. I am trying to learn. Mostly I'm trying to make the sounds I get in my studio compete with the sounds I get in "real" studios.

Real studios often invest in room treatments to control problem room resonances. You can DIY a certain amount of that too.

Again this is philosophically about reducing colorations and starting with a clean slate.

JR