monitors for dance music (techno)

[intellijel]

I have been using tannoy reveals (the old red passive ones) for about 10 years now. I originally bought them because they were well priced and had good reviews but I am well overdue to move into a more professional range of monitors.

Requirements:
<$1500
respond well in a small room
can be listened to for long periods of time
painfully honest sound
do not need to be used at loud volumes


From everything I have read, the Adam A7's seem to be the clear choice.
However there are few reviews that talk about it being used for dance music . Obviously for techno it helps to have a lot of low end response and so for a long time the Mackie HR824 have been popular (but also heavily criticized) for their extended low end due to a much bigger driver than the A7 has.

Some speakers with bigger drivers can be used at lower volume levels while still perceiving a flat response. However I have heard that if you use speakers with drivers too big for a small room the room response (bass reflections) will be a much bigger factor than the speakers response. In these cases smaller speakers can actually be more useful (again something like the A7). I guess I could always buy a sub to supplement the speakers if I eventually move to a place that I can monitor at louder volumes.

There are always lot's of opinions in these forums but I am especially interested to hear from people who are actually releasing records (aka professionals). I have a lot of experience producing but my mixes are not translating well so I have had to do tons and tons of work (e.g. listening on lot's of systems) in order to compensate.

 

[intellijel]

I should mention that several people have recommended the BM6A's (not the BM6A II) are preferred over the Adam A7's for house/techno due to their better bass response.

 

[EEMO1]

i use the a7's. i do hiphop and similar stuff that has a lot of bass, don't know if im a professional by any standards, but i am involved in about 6 releases a year with different artists & labels here in Finland.


i have to admit, a sub would be a great addition to the a7's, but you can still get by without it. i use a second set of BIG hifi-speakers to check the bass. im going to get the sub though when i get some money to spare. i have a treated room. bought the adams last summer. i still feel that im learning the monitors and getting better mixes every time i mix something.

when i got the adams, i was also looking at the blue sky media desk (the small one) 2.1 system. if you have a small room, they could also work.

 

[Viitalahde]

I heard these some months ago in a control room:

http://www.snakespeakers.com/s-series/s802.html

As far as I've understood, they were first made in the 90's for someone involved with Pandora and other Swedish dance music back then, and were built to deliver club-like dynamics and punch.

They actually did some that really well, there was a good bottom end to hit in your chest, but it wasn't boomy by from what I heard. The mids were OK, a tad honky though. Highs didn't pierce your ears and 909 sounded like a 909.

If you can test them somewhere, might be worthy..

 

[living sounds]

Adam is the way to go IMHO. For club music you need a sub with the A7 or A5 though.

 

[PimD]

+1 for the A7's
Sound great, no need for a sub in my room, but if you've got a nice room, and you do club music, get a sub.
:thumb:

 

[josh]

I have a better idea.
Spend 1000$ on your monitors, and spend 500$ on treating your room with broadband absorbtion. This will give you a significantly better monitoring environment than if you were to spend 10 grand on monitors.

With the 500$ you'll be able to buy some 4" GIK panels for corner treatment and some 2" panels to treat your first reflection points. Even better, since were are all DIY'ers, go to sensiblesoundsolutions.com and buy your own OC703 and guilford of maine cloth and build your own. I have build 4 of 9 total 2 x 4 panels for about 35$ each. Then with proper setup and monitor isolation, you'll be a happy guy. Without it, you'll never ever get an accurate bass response in what I'm assuming is a relatively small room somewhere in your home.

If you dont plan to do any sort of treatment then you might as well give your money to me and let me kick you in the nuts because the feeling will be the same. Mine will be quick and fast, and the other way will just be drawn out a little bit more. Seriously. Treat your room, and you might not even need a new set of monitors. I'm very surprised no one has mentioned this yet.

 

[rob_gould]

I'd totally agree about spending some money on acoustic treatment. Doesn't matter how god your speakers are if your room sound crap.

If you're limited budget wise then there are loads of ways you can build acoustic treatments. Search for 'rockwool' on the sound on sound forums.

One other pair of speakers it might be worth demoing are the Genelec 8040s, or even the 8030s. When combind with a sub which can be bought later they sound great IMO. I've had them for a couple of years now and I'm exceedingly happy with them.

 

[MartyMart]

+1 on the acoustic room treatment, it will make even just "OK" monitors
work much better for you.
I've used Genelec 2029's with the matching sub for that last 9 years and they
have been fantastic, they even take a digital input on an spdif cable !
For general tracking/checking I use a very cool sounding pair of Mission HiFi
speakers ( used to use AR18's for years too ) and also some cheap Control 1's
just for a crappy radio check.
Once you get used to something and find that it sounds "right" elsewhere, your
done !

MM.

 

[radiance]

[quote author="rob_gould"]I'd totally agree about spending some money on acoustic treatment. Doesn't matter how god your speakers are if your room sound crap.
[/quote]

[quote author="MartyMart"]+1 on the acoustic room treatment, it will make even just "OK" monitors
work much better for you.
[/quote]

+1 ... :green:

No but seriously..an untreated room can have 15dB peaks and -15dB dips (or even more) in the lower region due to standing waves...That will even make the best monitors sound like crap.

 

[playboss]

ridicoulus you can say that one 10 liter box has better bass than the other 9.5

 

[AnalogPackrat]

Two years ago I was looking for monitors and almost settled for a decent set of passives, but then demoed the Blue Sky MediaDesk system and was impressed. Based on that and some on line research I bought their bigger ProDesk 2.1 system. I like it. They've since revved it once (better amps, I believe). For under $1500 I think these are hard to beat.

I would think for dance/techno you definitely want a sub.

 

[living sounds]

+1 on the room treatment. But don't buy the stuff, DIY!

Concerning the Mediadesk: I've owned and used it. It's not bad, but lacking somewhat in clarity and the low mids. I found Adam to be a huge step up in comparison.

 

[intellijel]

Thanks for all the replies! Everyone has their own opinions on monitors as they are definitely highly subjective but I am consistently hearing good things about A7's. A7's and then later a sub8 to compliment them.

The other piece of advice I can't ignore is that acoustic treatment of a room will have a massively greater impact than buying better speakers.

So first step for me is to do some room analysis. I can either rent a measuring mic (or hire an acoustics specialist) or make do with one of those behringer ECM8000. I know they are not perfect but I am sure the imperfections are smaller than the inaccuracies in the room measurements I do due to many variables. The reviews on the ECM8000 are actually pretty positive (helps that behringer as always blatantly ripped off another well known companies design)

Once I have had a chance to analyse the data and take a good look at improved positioning I can start to explore diy methods of making absorbers, baffles and bass traps.
I am definitely prepared to spend $500-1000 on improving my room acoustics, especially since a lot of the materials/device employed will be re-usable if I move house (which I hope to do in a few months).

cheers,
Danjel

 

[Viitalahde]

Room treatment can go a long way and is absolutely essential, but so is speaker placement. Try out different variations, you'll be surprised,

 

[josh]

If you want a quick primer on treatment, head over to the Realtraps site
http://www.realtraps.com/info.htm and look at the "info" section and read through some of Ethan Winers articles.
Ethan is an excellent source of technical and practical data for the home Diy treatment peeps like us. He's also very helpful in that respect. Just hit one of the several message boards he frequents like Recording.org
Rod Gervais is a moderator over there and he recently wrote a book entitled "Home Recording Studio: Build it Like the Pros" which I am reading now in my space "toilet time" :grin:

Like I mentioned, you can get all the materials you need to build your own traps from http://sensiblesoundsolutions.com/ they've got loads of nifty products for building your own stuff. Especially since buying broadband absorbers is rather expensive.

I know a little bit about setting up a room correctly, so if you need me to divulge this small amount of information try and put up a sketch of the layout of your room with dims and where stuff is located.

 

[vertiges]

[quote author="living sounds"]+1 on the room treatment. But don't buy the stuff, DIY! [/quote]

I totally agree !!! An untreated room acts like a big random EQ !
A pair of speakers can't sound right in a small room with parallel walls without treatment ! :evil:

For exemple, with high density rockwool in a wood frame.
You can use any cloth you want (the air has to pass easily through it) but you have to use some polyester batting between the rockwool and the cloth...
One of the best forums in acoustic is : http://forum.studiotips.com/index.php

And one of the best books is : http://www.amazon.com/Master-Handbook-Acoustics-Alton-Everest/dp/0071360972

I don't know the size of your room but :

1) Most of the small room can't handle 8 inches drivers !
2) The placement of the speakers is very important (as Viitalahde already said). You should start at 38% (of the length of the room) from the front wall. Often, just moving your speakers by 1 foot can make a huge difference. Placing decoupling material under the speakers will help too. You're not obliged to buy the overpricey Auralex stuff. I used the big rubber rings you supposed to use as supports when installing a W.C. :green: .
3) It's very difficult "to fix" problems under 100 Hz in a small room.


[quote author="radiance"] No but seriously..an untreated room can have 15dB peaks and -15dB dips (or even more) in the lower region due to standing waves...That will even make the best monitors sound like crap.[/quote]

Yes, that's right ! And 15 dB are the minimum... Often it's : 20, 25, 30 dB !!
The are caused by standing waves but ALSO with the reflections. (the sound follows two different paths before reaching your ears and causes phase cancellations.
You have to try to have a Zero Reflection Zone at the listening position. Use the "mirror trick". You can use broadband absorptions or diffusors.
You have to kill all the reflections which happen under the 10 ms after the sound is emitted.

[quote author="AnalogPackrat"]Two years ago I was looking for monitors and almost settled for a decent set of passives, but then demoed the Blue Sky MediaDesk system and was impressed. Based on that and some on line research I bought their bigger ProDesk 2.1 system. I like it. They've since revved it once (better amps, I believe). For under $1500 I think these are hard to beat.
[/quote]

The Prodesk are very good speakers and the integration of the sub is astonishing, better than the Genelec kits in my opinion :wink: but according to me, they have 2 weaknesses : the 100-300 Hz region is very "thin" and the sweet spot is incredibly small. But choosing a speaker is very subjective !!! :wink:

[quote author="intellijel"] So first step for me is to do some room analysis. I can either rent a measuring mic (or hire an acoustics specialist) or make do with one of those behringer ECM8000. I know they are not perfect but I am sure the imperfections are smaller than the inaccuracies in the room measurements I do due to many variables. The reviews on the ECM8000 are actually pretty positive (helps that behringer as always blatantly ripped off another well known companies design)
[/quote]

The ECM8000 will do a perfect job ! (unless you want to mike a guitar... :green: ) You can use a soft like : http://www.etfacoustic.com/

"En résumé" :

1) Good speakers placement
2) Bass trapping in the corners
3) A Zero reflection zone at the listenig position
4) There are alternatives (not much at that price), but you can't go wrong with the A7 !.

eD)))