Need I/O audio, network format choice help

[abecedarian]

I need help/advice setting up my live recording rig.  I need to take up to 25 track from a Yamaha DM1000 digital mixing console into a macbook pro.  Yamaha uses Mini-YGDAI to add I/O in a wide variety of audio and network formats to the back of the console.  They used to have mLan cards but no more and I haven't found one (MY16-MLAN) for sale on eBay for a while. 
There are so many options if you look on their page: http://www.yamahaproaudio.com/products/interfaces/ygdai_cards/
AES/EBU, MADI, Ethernet, Dante, Toslink,  SDI, Cobranet, ADAT, TDIF, Optocore, and more!
The mLan protocol was elegant. One cable plugged directly into the macbook. Now I need to choose amongst these different options.  I realize this will most likely mean extra kit will be neccessary to go between the card and the macbook.  Any advice on which to choose? I read that I should choose A protocol with 96k capability because I was told the Yamaha sounds better at this rate.  Thank you for your input. 

 

[abbey road d enfer]

I would definitely go MADI.
Many formats do not lend themselves to connection to a computer. RME are the experts, they offer a large selection of possibilities.
AES/EBU and T/DIF take four multicores for 25 tracks, ADAT takes 14 fibers at 96k.
Cobra takes just one Ethernet connection but it's a dying protocol.
Dante is promising, but I don't think you can use the standard Ethernet port of your computer.
Quote: I should choose A protocol with 96k capability because I was told the Yamaha sounds better at this rate.
Anything sounds better at 96k than at 48.

 

[pucho812]

+1 for the madi. It will handle 32 i/o @ 96 and is a single wire maybe 2 if your indeed  are going in and out.

 

[abecedarian]

Dante is promising, but I don't think you can use the standard Ethernet port of your computer.

Thank you for your insight. 8)  I'm reading the FAQ section of the Audinate Dante system since you brought that point up. Here's a quote:
"To set up a Dante network simply connect your Dante-enabled equipment together using standard Ethernet cables (e.g., CAT5e or CAT6) and off-the-shelf Ethernet switches. A PC or Mac running Dante Controller is connected to this network and used to monitor the network and set up audio routes."
There is more to read of course, however, it looks promising. For the price, Dante is very interesting indeed. If this really works, this is going to take over the industry, imio.  MADI sounds powerful though. MADI cards are over three times the cost ($1500).  But you get what you pay for...

 

[tmuikku]

Yeah, dante works directly with any ethernet card! Just buy a virtual soundcard driver license from their site. They also sell ( don't know if directly, but for example focusrite sells ) dante ethernet card that goes to PCIe slot which ought to give better latency. I've been watching dante for a while since it looks promising to interface Raphael (rkn80) AD / DA boards

 

[abbey road d enfer]

Yes, I'm too very interested in Dante; it looks like it may become THE standard in professional A/V applications, which is my bread-earning activity.
As the FAQ says: "A PC or Mac running Dante Controller is connected to this network and used to monitor the network and set up audio routes.", which leaves some doubts about the possibility to use use it to transmit and receive audio with acceptable confidence.
As tmuikku mentions, it seems it takes a special card for full usage of the network.
Finding a network is one of my tasks since about 10 years: from time to time, there are all kinds of promising announcements made - like Cobranet, that is now unable to answer the needs of today's requirements, short of a complete redesign. EtherSound, with all its shortcomings, has proved to be one of the most satisfactory. In brief, 10 years later, I still haven't found THE answer - neither has the industry. Although Dante looks to be the perfect solution - it answers all the questions of all users, from amateur to pro to international broadcast companies - it seems AVB is catching up gaining acceptance - and AES support; it also uses Ethernet as a physical support. In fact, Dante accepts the AVB protocol.
Audinate's virtual sound card clearly states the limitations of 32x32 ch @48k with 100-base Ethernet.
In all cases, it seems like specific hardware is required for full-spec operation.
I haven't experimented with Dante/AVB; it would be interesting to have reports for those who have actually experimented with these.

 

[abecedarian]

From weighing the cost factors, Dante may be worth the chance. 

One option: Dante - $650 and that's all that's needed - the software comes with it.

Another Option: RME - HDSPe Madiface into my Mac's ExpressCard slot - $1600
And I would have to purchase a MADI card for the Yamaha DM 1000 Mini YGDAI slot - $1500

 

[abbey road d enfer]

Well, if you go for Dante, it would be extremely interesting to have your feedback.
Do you think you can test before buying or if they have a return policy?

 

[abecedarian]

From a Logic Forum:


"I work for Audinate, and so have a definite bias I'll state up front. My name is Brad and I work for them out of Portland, Oregon.

The Dante-MY16-AUD is just a little piece of what Dante is about. While the old MLan card gave you Firewire, Dante is really a complete networked audio system that scales way, way up. You can connect many Dante-enabled devices (and computers) together using ordinary computer networking gear, and share that connection with ordinary network traffic. Managing hundreds of channels is completely within scope for Dante.

From a functional perspective, the Dante-MY16-AUD combined with Dante Virtual Soundcard would easily be equivalent or better than the MLan. You get 16 bi-directional channels @ 48kHz connected to your Mac using only a regular Ethernet cable plugged into the regular network port. You can easily add more Dante-MY16-AUD cards and devices, plug them all into a switch and build as big a system as you wish. The Dante Virtual Soundcard handles up to 64 simultaneous channels of audio (bi-directional).

Later this summer we'll see the commercial release of the Dante PCIe card. That requires a Mac Pro of course, but provides 128 channels of audio at crazy low latency - under 2.9ms round trip including A/D - D/A conversions. If you are doing live overdubs, it's amazing.

So that's my plug. Feel free to contact me at support (at) audinate.com."

 

[abbey road d enfer]

OK, so that's what their card is about; it has the possibility to handle the full channel count that the standard port can't.
Looks great.

 

[grantlack]

Later this summer we'll see the commercial release of the Dante PCIe card.

had a correspondence with this brad fellow, didn't quite tell the whole story.  the pci-e card will only be offered as a pairing with the digi stuff, no standalone.  i wish we had a puke emoticon...
the yammy card should serve its purpose in this instance though.

 

[abbey road d enfer]

Focusrite have the Dante card in their range of RedNet products. I don't know whether it's available alone or bundled with one of the big expensive boxes.

 

[grantlack]

Focusrite have the Dante card in their range of RedNet products. I don't know whether it's available alone or bundled with one of the big expensive boxes.

Looks like I was wrong-ish, they'll be an add-on... At $2k a pop  :'(. Frontendaudio has them as projected stock for August.
Big expensive box + small expensive card.

 

[abbey road d enfer]

The Yamaha Dante card handles only 16channels (8 at double speed), so you're gonna need two cards. Apparently it comes as a seriously more expensive alternative than MADI.
If you don't need the networking capabilities, it's hard to justify the cost.

 

[abecedarian]

Really?  That's interesting because I saw the card alone was around $649 each.  Unless something has changed...

 

[abbey road d enfer]

I was under the impression that the card was 1.5 grand...
Now that sheds a different light.
You'll need the virtual soundcard software too; any pricing on it?

 

[tmuikku]

...
You'll need the virtual soundcard software too; any pricing on it?

I think it was mentioned on Audinate page somewhere. You can buy 7day, one month (or something like that) or lifetime license. 7 day license was something like 15$, lifetime license about 150$ if i recall. I believe the license is included with most of their products?

 

[abecedarian]

I wrote to them and here is the response:


"The Dante-MY16-AUD is sold through Yamaha dealers exclusively. It comes bundled with Dante Virtual Soundcard, and so all you need to record on your computer is an Ethernet cable.

The Dante-MY16-AUD lists for $649. Online they are available at Fullcompass.com and ..."

This seems like an awesome solution for me.  I'm going to get it and see what happens!