NEVE VR Information wanted

[Kid Squid]

Hiya chaps,

Got a sick VR channel on my kitchen table at the mo, anyone know the pin outs / or got a copy of the schematics, I got no extender cards, so I'm going to have to bench 'it' first.

Any hints n tips for working on a VR? this is the first time I've been near one, and It looks a beast :wink:

any info is much appreciated :guinness:

Regards,
Steve :thumb:

 

[gyraf]

Title slightly edited..

http://www.groupdiy.com/index.php?topic=19276

Jakob E.

 

[Kid Squid]

Jakob,

Sorry mate, Didn't see the posting, about the abbreviations :shock:
A million apologies , Old boy :guinness:

 

[pucho812]

whats wrong with it?

VR's are hot plugable meaning you do not have to turn off the buckets like an SSL. In fact there are no bucket(channel banks) switches to cut power to them just the main ones on the PSU. But you can have the console running and just put the module in.

Most times on the VR the biggest problem is capacitors dying. You should replace the caps with Vishey/BC high temp capacitors...

then the next big thing to go wrong are the switches, which are such a pain in the ass to fix.

You will mostly likely trace your issue to a capacitor. Of course thats without me knowing what that issue is. :wink:

Oh also watch out for those blue square connectors attaching the EQ cards and ther cards. to the main board the pins are very very sharp and will hurt if the go through skin. I know first hand...

 

[SSLtech]

[quote author="pucho812"]VR's are hot plugable meaning you do not have to turn off the buckets like an SSL. In fact there are no bucket(channel banks) switches to cut power to them just the main ones on the PSU. But you can have the console running and just put the module in.[/quote]
You CAN do this on an E or G-series SSL though not on a 9000 without buggering the FETs, so I believe. Personally I do not see this as a benefit, merely an excuse to be lazy, so I don't even do it on those.

Having installed several VRs from new, and having spoken with the commissioning engineers, they DO NOT recommend hot-plugging them, and in fact it is only out of a combination of laziness and superstition about it being bad to turn off the power supplies which has led to this myth becoming prevalent.

[quote author="pucho812"]Most times on the VR the biggest problem is capacitors dying. You should replace the caps with Vishey/BC high temp capacitors...

You will mostly likely trace your issue to a capacitor. Of course thats without me knowing what that issue is. :wink:

Oh also watch out for those blue square connectors attaching the EQ cards and ther cards. to the main board the pins are very very sharp and will hurt if the go through skin. I know first hand...[/quote]

I jig-up the modules using power in and signal in/out through the ribbon connectors. BEWARE those paper-ribbons which link the boards.

If you need switches, I have bought some routing modules SPECIFICALLY because they have ALL-GOLD PINS on the switches, while the rest of all none "slash-A" (Japanese market spec) consoles have age-noisy silver everywhere apart from the routing matrix.

Please specify the problems, there are MANY common issues, most of which are not capacitor-related... If you have noise when the EQs are switched in, replace the pots. You'll notice that the PCBs are drilled and traced to accept either Vishay/Sfernice white pots, or Clarostat blue pots, which were also used in the 'slash-A' modules.

If you have the blue pots, buy a lottery ticket; you're a very lucky man! -If you have the white pots, you're f*cked.

Switches are linked together in groups. You need experience to desolder them, and will do RUINOUS amounts of damage -particularly on the small fader module- if you are not equipped with a VERY well-maintained power vacuum desoldering station... The mini fader module is a 4-layer (top, bottom and two in the middle) PCB, so repairing it is all but impossible once you get too far into damaging it... traces run beneath the switches, and are usually damaged if you try to pry the switches up with a watchmker's screwdriver during the desoldering process... -seen it all before.

The reason that aVRs aren't bucket-power-switchable is that they daisy-chain power out from the center. Voltages (±15V and R-15V which is negative 15 Volts used for Recall) and the power droops progressively aas you get away from the center. SSLs STAR-feed their power, and switch each 'leg' of the star. -SInce NEve daisy-chain it, breaking the power at one point will kill everything beyond that bucket... so they couldn't do it.. -A pity really, becaues it would've stopped all that power rail droop and recall inaccuracy.

I have a full set of schematics here, though they're quite terrible to read. I've recapped several consoles, and re-potted a couple. I've done more repairs and reworks than I care to remember... they're loathsome things to work on... I HATE THEM.

You cannot scope them in-situ, because of the back-to-back nature of the circuit boards, the metal plate down one side of the module makes access near-impossible, ventilation IMPOSSIBLE, overheating very likely, and the fact that they then run 30V peak-to-peak AC through non-biased regular 6.3VAC electrolytics which are crowded into double-decked, over-populated, heat-crazed circuit boards makes life STINK.

Yes, you can pull the pots out through the front panel... -so freakin' what? I suppose it helps if you can supply power meaning that you can ig it up self-contained, but the friggin paper-ribbons get britlw with age, and if you haven't fixed it by the tie you've opened the 'clam-shell' a half-dozen times, the conductors in the ribbon start to break, and then there's more faults in it than when you started.

Ugh.

God luch.

Ugh, -again.

Keef

 

[pucho812]

I have known that about the e/G's but yes with the bucket cuts for power under the patch bay why even hot plug. As for hot plugging the VR It's what I was always told and never had an issue but I suspect your right on the lazyness factor :wink: I knew that about the 9000 as well and got that first hand when Our 2 SSL's came in and got comissioned at westlake.

the power distro scheme on the VR, are you familiar with the John Musgrave mods? IIRC he removes that section in favor of a barrier strip style as part of the mods he does.


The paper ribbons I have broken a few in my younger days. They are fixable and by fixable you have to redo them if you rip them.

Keef we been lucky so far between our jap spec 36 and the 2 that arrived, once they were up and running we were able to piece together to good consoles but the spare modules could use a recap...

 

[SSLtech]

The 36 which we split, moved in and re-assembled in -what... 7½ hours... was a very good 'un... that 60 that arrived the day before I flew out was brown-sugared... or maybe even "Donald-Ducked"!

John Musgrave is a good friend, and I'm presently re-swtching the modules on the Conway SSL... My colleague Mike (who you met in NY and then again out at your palce) was John Musgrave's leiutenant and was in charge of QC for the SECOND re-capping project which John Undertook for AMS/Neve under contract... between us we've got quite a bit of AMS Neve experience! :wink:

By the way, We're sending over a hottie your way... I think she leaves next week. -Her Name's Kristen, and I've already 'warned' her about your boss... You know, "God's gift to Shielas"! :twisted: :wink:

I asked the diminutive-statured one if we could get a couple of the old-and-knackered modules, for a particular project, but so far I've heard nothing back... Maybe you could remind him if you see him...

Keef

 

[pucho812]

and what is Kristen going to be doing :? Is she available :green: Um.. Modules.... I'll remind him but what modules and or parts are you looking for so whenI remind him I can go did you get the INsert module name here ready for the mother ship.

 

[Kid Squid]

Sorry Chaps,
Maybe I should have given a little bit more info

Anyway, this is the situation.......

A Very good friend has been offered a 72 channel VR 'VSR' for a ridiculous low price - it's all above board, and it is still in it's boxes ( and it has been for the last 8 years ?!?!), He's asked me , if I'd be interested in putting it all back together, and re-capping /re- switching the beast.
So I'm very up for a challenge, and went to have a look at it yesterday ( It's only about 15 miles away from me ). all the channels are packed 3 to a box, and theres a load of boxes !, the master section is still in one of the 36 channel frames, along with the flying faders.
on one of the modules, is marked dodgy, so I thought I'd have a go at this first. big problem being at the moment is I got no service manual
So, I can't really say what the 'problem ' is, because I haven't powered her up and put a signal through it.
Also, any tips on what is the best way of removing the 'individual' modules from the channel strip, before I learn myself the hard way :wink:

Thanks for the heads up with the cap selection Pucho :thumb:
I'm not at all familliar with the John Musgrove mods to the power distribution, would you be able to share any more info :wink:
yep, got the same type paper ribbons on some of the Eurotherm gear in work, can be a right bugger :wink:

Having installed several VRs from new, and having spoken with the commissioning engineers, they DO NOT recommend hot-plugging them, and in fact it is only out of a combination of laziness and superstition about it being bad to turn off the power supplies which has led to this myth becoming prevalent.

Thanks for this Keith, I had wondered....

I jig-up the modules using power in and signal in/out through the ribbon connectors.

would there be any chance of me getting hold of the pin outs from you Keef ( my mate is on the case of the manuals, but just in case this takes some weeks. :wink: )

Right - looks like I got a pile of white Sfernice pots in front of me
surely, it's not all bad .......isit ?
yep, I can get my hands on a metcal vac de-soldering jobbie ( if I need to !)but that mini fader board sounds a bit of a 'mare, I'll try to stay away from, unless REALLY needed !

and the fact that they then run 30V peak-to-peak AC through non-biased regular 6.3VAC electrolytics

WTF ? :shock: ?..........

So , Looks like a very big hill in front of me then Chaps, any help / comments/ are very, very much appreciated tho,

Thanks lads,

Steve :thumb:

p.s. Keefie, fancy sending a 'hottie ' over this way ? :wink: :grin: :guinness:

 

[Slenderchap]

FYI... we manufacture extenders for V series consoles;

http://www.audiomaintenance.com/acatalog/Extender_Cards.html

AML-15-201 and AML-15-202

Colin
www.audiomaintenance.com

 

[SSLtech]

Yes, the AMEK extenders will work well, but look closely at the bottom of the modules: (Colin... Dave Rochester stayed over at our house last month... he and I have been working on a couple of projects together lately; -We talked about you and hope you're doing well)

One of the (four? -from memory) DIN connectors is 3-row 96-pin, the other three are 2-row 64-pin jobbies. If you get all 96-pin extenders then that's all well and good. If you get 1x96 and 3x64, then you have to remember to use the 96 in the right location.... just a word to the wise.

Wholesale reswitching... Oh good god no. -Not unless you have a GUARANTEED source for new switches... preferably gold-pin, so you don;t do this again VERY soon.

Watch also for CMOS logic-related faults in the min-fader area. When the caps age, they leak conductive spleege onto the PCBs, and the CMOS logic misbehaves.

Because of the routing issues, I'd say that you cannot 'test' the module's working mode without having a console to put it in... I've never seen or heard of a comprehensive test jig which will allow you to do otherwise...

Sorry kid, but I'd leave this WELL alone until you can test it to narrow it down... I tell people who write stuff like "NFG" or "bad" or "Faulty" that it's useless as a starting point... it tells me NOTHING about where to start, and diagnosing that description on a module with no frame to test it in is like diagnosing a car without wheels to drive it on... -If someone says "won't go into fourth gear", you can still work on it, but if someone says "wont drive properly" you can't do anything.

Testing each subsection (input amps& Dynamics is one, routing is another, aux sends is another, EQ is also one, and the mini fader section is the last one) is possible, but scoping and probing will require a LOT of disturbance of the paper ribbons, and THAT is going to induce faults... so I say leave it alone until you know what you're looking for... Also the mini-fader module routes ALL things (EQ, dynamics, auxes etc) to monitor or channel path, and so faults there show up as faults everywhere... the mini fader has to have ALL of its input pins 'tickled' with the right logic combo, so you'd have to build a comprehensive jig to test that without the console...

I say leave it VERY well alone...

Sorry, Kid. If you can narrow it down, I can help, but trust me on this, it's a sleeping dog, and a lot of poking WILL make it bite you.

I say get a set of extenders from Colin if the console doesn't have any, and then set up part of the console. -Watch out for the Schroff rails which distribute power, they can burn up if there's any high-resistance connections, or any corrosion etc... but power up at least half of the console and then use the extenders to trace problems.

I made jigs for the EQ and Dynamics sections, but they can't test for any signal-routing issues located in the fader section, and so you have to be sure that it's in the sub-module before you start.

Keef

 

[Kid Squid]

Thanks chaps,

Colin, thanks for the links regarding the V series extenders, I will be in touch :grin:
Keef, I'll leave out the re-switching then, on your very wise words, but how about the recap of a channel - do you ' change the caps,'selectively' as in power rail /signal flow, or do you just recap the lot in one go ( what I'd probably go for ), how many electros am I looking at, roughly per channel ?( another reason for getting at least a channel drawing - I'll give Neve a ring in the morning)
yep,definatley I'll take note of your words of wisdom ( you've done loads of 'em and worked with them on both sides of the coin, whereas this is the first one I've seen for all of 2 hours, and I'm a power station tech ?!?! :wink: )
So, It seems like I'm going to have to wait untill he scores it, for me to find out bugger that is
no worries - I know what you mean about the 'faulty' writing thing , I've been through the same thing in work :evil: -faulty' is a very wide ranging word.
I really appreciate the offer of your help Keith, and when I'm in a bit of a better position eg. narrowed down the 'fault'(s), and I totally understand the comment about poking the sleeping dog. thanks brawd.
I think the first thing to do, when he gets it, is as you say, get a compliment of extenders, set up, and try it.

I'm still very curious about the recapping tho.

heres a question regarding the seperate modules -

Are the seperate modules contained as one item (is the pre and dynamics section a 'complete unit' that feeds onto a motherboard ?, as well as the routing, eq, aux's, mini fader etc)
could I , for instance, take out an eq 'module' and rack it up seperatley,with a psu and ins and outs, and the same for the pre/dynamics 'module' or am I talking out of my bum ..........

questions,questions, more wine, more questions....................... :thumb:

:guinness:

 

[SSLtech]

could I , for instance, take out an eq 'module' and rack it up seperately, with a psu and ins and outs, and the same for the pre/dynamics 'module' or am I talking out of my bum ..........

that's what I did, basically, -yes.

If you like, you can remove the metal shield on one side of the module, by removing the screws along the edge down by teh connectors... (DON'T LOSE THEM! -pute them in a cup) and you should see that the five sub-module assemblies (and the recall/motherboard at the bottom makes six... but leave that alone) are seperate. Two or four screws hold the modules into the top frame assembly, behind the front panel. Remove the screws from say the EQ sub-assembly.

Then the EQ will slide back into the module -knobs and all. YOu can manouevre it out, until it's just held in by the grey plastic ribbons. Then pop the ribbons off, but BE CAREFUL for two reasons: one Pucho already mentioned (the pins will poke into your hands if you're unguarded!) and the other is the fact that the connections are semi-vulnerable indulation-displacement connections: Seen more than a few intermittents there.

Anyhow, the EQ module is then out. Power and signal goes in & out, the rest of the pins are for things like recall outputs from the extra pot and switch gangs. Neve did a very complicated "power-of-two" math thing to send many switches (bot not pots) over a single line... very complicated to explain, don't try to figure it out, just leave it alone unless you have a problem, adn be aware that Neve switch Recall tends to be inaccurate because of this even when it works right... Pucho can test this by -for example- recalling a module and pressing a 1/2/3/4 bus small fader routing buttont HALFWAY... -Pucho, -see how several switches will read wrong? -it's because they share a recall line, and one switch is in an "in-between" voltage state... Now imagine what happens when the R-15V rail is off-voltage...hell on earth. The furthest buckets from the center read wrong compared to the nearset channels, and that's another thing which Musgrave's improved Star power distribution fixes...

Oh, a tangent: -The 208 recall card in the center section is another occasional failure culprit... it relay-switches the R-15V prior to distribution. -I have spares at home if you ever lose one. -I've seen them burn.

Anyhow, yes you can fix things that way if you know -for example- that one band of the EQ is bad, or the dynamics compresor works, but not the gate and so on... but fixing a whole module needs a console to put it in... so re-switching or re-capping needs a console or a VERY comprehensive jig to test it.

Musgrave used a console to test the re-capped modules in. I'd have to ask Mike what the percentage of modules which had faults induced in was, but I know it was high... the surgety's too invasive, and I'd never DREAM of reswitching without a console to test every SINGLE module in before moving on... I'm in the middle of that right now with a 9000 (another former John Musgrave charge) and I have to check EVERY module before moving on... there's no 9000 test jig (I have a complete SL613 4000/6000/8000 module test jig) and VRs are MUCH worse than SSl's: the fact taht the switches are "braced" together in groups and cannot be individually removed is a complete nightmare.

the latches ont eh switches are platic and break. Switches which should be latching behave as momentary... It's easier to prise the caps off the group, bend up the tabs, remove the clips & springs, remove the metal plate, replace the latch from a good switch, re-bend the metal plate, and re-assemble the whole thing than to disassemble the whole group... It's a friggin' nightmare!

Keith

 

[SSLtech]

Oh... two hidden screws holding the routing section in are right by the 'captive' module locating screw, on the END of the module...

Just remembered that bit...

I say take the metal plate off, get used to removing the modules, how the sub-modules "clam-shell" apart with the ribbons at the bottom (removing the remaining screws from the black plastic standoffs) and stop there for now. -If any screws are longer than others, note their location on a reference sheet of paper. Two of the standoff screws will be removed already, since they also go through the frame to hold the sub module in.

You will NEED the metcal, and make sure that you have any spare gaskets or seals that require regular service or maintenance.

Take a look at how the switches are "grouped" with the metal plate just by the front panel, underneath the springs. Wherever two or more switches are together, the silvery metal plate usually joins them, and they're specific combinations of pole-numbers, latching/non-latching etc, so they are VERY location-specific... and not very available AT ALL... -it's a nightmare.

If you NEED to talk more, you can call me (I can't call you... no international calls as mandated by my employer) but I do strongly recommend that you limit yourself until you get the console up & running.

Recapping is done by making a "map" out of clear acetate, which shows all the electrolytic cap locations, and their orientation. Once you've made it, you use it as an overlay to check that you've removed all the caps that you need to, and again at the end, to check all the orientations are correct.... trust me, THIS is the way to go. make a template for EVERY board that you'll be doing.

There are HUNDREDS of caps. -Sorry boyo. The components are so densely packed that the resistors stand up on end in a lot of places.... be warned: it's TIGHT in there.

Check and DOUBLE check. otherwise suffer. Be organised. Be ready for a capacitor bill in the teens of thousands, and a switch bill in the tens of thousands... That's just the way it is, -sorry.

Like I said before:

Ugh.

Keith

 

[thomasdf]

Hi all
Someone is asking me to rack a mic pre / dynamic + EQ modules from a VR channel.
From what I read here, I "simply" need to build a PSU, and then route the signal in the proper places?
I am looking for channel strip schematics, or any kind of schematics and they are very hard to come by?

I have found these on the web (see this post attachment + next 2 posts), but I believe they are incomplete? Are they VR's?

At least, if someone can give me the pinouts of the modules, it would be awesome!

Thanks a lot

Thomas

 

[thomasdf]

2nd document

 

[thomasdf]

And third!

 

[Walrus]

Dynamics....

 

[Walrus]

EQ

 

[Walrus]

Interconnect.
And yes, those are VR EQ drawings.