New markets

[lagoausente]

First of all, just tell that I think the Drawing board is a good section to this thread, even is not theory, has much relation with the fact that today, many free guys can be learning and teaching the inside secrets of the gear, and that has to do with the money, buisness etc.

I just wanted to start a reflection about why we are here.
As a newbie I started a thread, about if is afordable to DIY or not. The conclusion is that many times if you save money, it doesn´t worth itself for the time you have to spent on the project. So, many of the guys that end DIY , are for passion, and to get knowlegde.
I think there is another issue. The truth, and the lie. At least me, I´m tired of being deceived when buying devices. Marketing, prestige of firms often make people buy things without knowing the truth inside. And often, to know what is inside is imposible, unless you buy it, and open it.
In the other hand, we have now a new market. DIY kits, more or less assembled, for afordable prices. Afordable prices often have to do , at my opinion, with ausence of costs of marketing advertisements, distribuitors, stores... etc etc.
But that´s not tha main issue I want to remark. The main issue I think is the information, and sincerity. Before buying a kit, we have access to schematics, and know what components we´ll get, and even can select what op-amps or transformers we prefer.
This for me, makes a quite big diference of type of markets. Comercial seems to prefer a blind buyer, since DIY market seems lo like people who likes knowledge.
For many guys that have not enough time to became a designer of it´s own preamps. Here starts the needing of an exchange. The same often is more practical to buy a device that to build it, also many times is more practical to buy a pcb with components that to build it from 0.
What I miss, and is the motivation of this post, is more marketing of DIY kits. And when I tell more marketing don´t mean advertisement like big comercial companies. I mean a info marketing. Especially for newbies, that we don´t know yet how that transformer or that op-amp color or gives to the sound.
I mean, I go to one of this DIY pages and read; kit with "x" op-amps, and "y" input transformers.
Than other kit with other ones... I can of course, take the search, and be the next weeks nights reading lots of threads.. but, why? You can tell me the pros and cons of each kit you sell, what get with this op-amp, advantages and disvantages of one design compared with other, and that is technical type of advertisement that is based on electronic objective issues, and have nothing to do with the advertisement of big companies.
Then , the difference is quite big, since even we don´t have knowledge to know in depth how the preamps works, can have a quite cleaner idea of what we´ll get with each type of preamp. That would be many guys, forget the "blind" method of buying preamps based on a company name or prestige, or even high price.

 

[matta]

I can of course, take the search, and be the next weeks nights reading lots of threads.. but, why?

Because that is how you learn... that is how most of us here have learned, but spending countless hours a day reading, researching, and then building... there are no shortcuts.

If you don't want to wade through the threads and search out your info, then keep buying your gear, it will save you 'wasting' your time learning something new...

Most of us here are in it for the long haul, many members have been doing this for +50 years of their lives.

Trust your ears, if there is a product out there you like the sound of, save up, buy it, use it, make music.

DIY, kits etc are a not a 'cheap' way out of buying a 'high end pre amp', which seems to be your catch phrase.

You seem to have ignored the wonderful advise many users have given you in your Lab thread, and now choose to pollute the Drawing Board (mind you, I'm prob doing the same by responding).

The Drawing Board is for new ideas, where designers bring their thoughts to the table for the input from others.

Cheers

Matt

 

[lagoausente]

DIY, kits etc are a not a 'cheap' way out of buying a 'high end pre amp', which seems to be your catch phrase

Sorry to contradict you, but seems you didn´t understand nothing on my post. As you tell, I have just told just the same.

As a newbie I started a thread, about if is afordable to DIY or not. The conclusion is that many times if you save money, it doesn´t worth itself for the time you have to spent on the project. So, many of the guys that end DIY , are for passion, and to get knowlegde.

If you don't want to wade through the threads and search out your info, then keep buying your gear, it will save you 'wasting' your time learning something new...

That´s what I´m telling. The title of the post tells it. "new markets". And as I explain along the post, I´m refering of me, as potential buyer of your gear, for example the kits.
And as I have told, the reason I would prefer a DIY kit instead of a big company device is to can get some info about the characteristics of the gear., not for it´s price.
Also when I told "afordable" don´t means, "low-cost", means "afordable".

Trust your ears, if there is a product out there you like the sound of, save up, buy it, use it, make music.

Yes, and that´s why I´m talking about DIY as a new market to buy. A more interesting market I think, where technical issues are on the table, and any buyer can have a look, if wants to do it.

You seem to have ignored the wonderful advise many users have given you in your Lab thread, and now choose to pollute the Drawing Board (mind you, I'm prob doing the same by responding).

Don´t agree. I think you have a fixed thoughts about guys like me arriving here and asking for the same, and seems you could reply to all my post just reading the first line, and writing with closed eyes, really convinced of your words. If you have any real interest on the post, please re-read it. It doesn´t tell nothing you claim I´m telling.

The Drawing Board is for new ideas, where designers bring their thoughts to the table for the input from others.

:thumb: Exactly my intention. The new idea is not guys here sell gear or kits because they are already selling them. The reflection is about make a growing market, from you guys who have spent hours and hours reading to us, potential buyers who didn´t have it, or only partially.
The intention is just to tell that is a very interesting market where to "buy". And adding probably would be interesting a litlle more advertisement, and I´m refering about technical advertisement, wait a minute.. , don´t think that therea are no intermedium steps. I can calculate the resistences to get a determined current given a "X" voltage, for example but have not specific knowledge to can design preamps.
What I wanted to say, and I think is not so out of tune, is that I select the "buy" option, instead of the DIY option, and select the "buy a DIY kit", I would like to read on the web the technical characteristics of the preamp, instead of the stellar photos of the comercial gear.
I don´t see nothing bad on making an alternative strong market that compite with the tradicional one, and based on full or partial assembled gear, but with some more info about what it contains inside that the tradicional one.
I really din´t think it was so dificult to understand.

 

[Guest]

Group DIY might not have a list of available kits (although to be quite honest the usage of DIY and not kits is more that this forum is used for - the clue is in the title Group DIY)

Tape-op does though
http://messageboard.tapeop.com/viewtopic.php?t=28101

With regards to the commercial worthiness of kits - the audio market is fairly small and the DIY kit market is a further small sub set of that
The distressor sould 6,000, the Millenia preamp 40,000 (I think) - that's the sort of numbers we are talking about - not huge volumes by any strecth of the imagination.

Although I do see commercial opportunities opening up in the "500 series size" - and I also see a few of our collegues from this forum going straight for that market as well (and good luck to them)

 

[SSLtech]

It's the difference between 'DIY' and 'HSEDI'. "Do It Yourself" and "Have Someone Else Do It".

It's like hanging wallpaper. You can pay someone to do it or you can do it yourself. -You do it yourself, and it's cheaper, but only if you value your time as worthless.

My time is not worthless, and I charge premium rate for repairing or custom building things. I've built (for example) a pair of Purple Audio MC76's. :ast month someone wanted to buy them. I added up what it cost me to build them, and it made the price about $3500 each... Double the cost of buying them from Purple... -WITH A WARRANTY!

In parts, it was cheap. In labor it was very costly, but I learned a lot, and can now repair an 1176 much faster, since I now have a more intimate understanding of how EXACTLY it does its magic.

DIY takes time, and you don't seem to want to invest that? -Why is that? -Beacuse you value your time too much perhaps/ -If so, then it's potentially insulting to expect taht anyone better-versed in the art will sell you their time for less money than you value their own.

Last weekend, I actually walked out on a recording session (which I was doing as a free-of-charge favour) because the client hadn't turned up 1½ hours after the appointed time... (I was there 30 minutes early and was ready to go at the right time). When he asked why I wasn't there when he finally called me 2 hours later, I explained that just because I was giving my time for free didn't make it worthless, and that I had plenty of other things to do. Next Sunday I bet you a thousand dollars he'll be right on time.

So time is valuable. If you want to learn, we're here to help. If you want to buy gear, go and buy some gear. You find a piece of gear that uyou like and buy it.

Why are WE here? -To build things for ourselves, to learn and to enjoy spending the time doing it. -That doesn't seem to be why you're here. -And you seem to be reluctant or unwilling to accept that people won't sell you stuff here or build things for you. You repeatedly mention the desire for high-class gear, but at less of a cost. -That just sounds cheap to me.

Things that I build are custom. They're more expensive than anything you can buy off a production line. -Why do people build production lines? -Because it makes the gear cheaper. -It doesn't make the components much cheaper, but it makes the labor of building the gear MUCH cheaper.

-So buy something off a production line, or pay a premium price.

Or do it yourself, and get over the fact that people aren't going to fall over each other in a rush to build things for you.

You might learn a lot.

Keith

 

[Greg]

I think from idealogical standpoint, your sentiments are good... but I don't think it's very practical.

Let's look at two aspects: time and cost.

Most people around here are not full-time musicians or gear designers. I'm an Electrical Engineer and work no less than 40 hours per week (usually between 45-50) for a controls company. Then I usually put 5-10 hours per week working on DIY or "for pay" jobs I do for engineers around New Orleans. So for the sake of a nice round number, let's say I work no less than 50 hours a week. I don't work myself to death, but after a 50 hour work week and spending time with family/friends, I don't have much time (on a consistant basic), to provide the necessary support for a DIY kit. Joe and Matt at JLM Audio spend alot of their time here at the forum helping DIYers troubleshoot project builds. The average person, and even the most knowledgable, could not provide this type of support.

Now let's look at the financials needed for this, and let's keep it simple. Let's say I want to provide a complete (PCB, components, chassis, PSU) API type preamp kit, which is a very simple circuit with a selling price of $600 per pair. I think this would be reasonable... a pair of API preamps for $600. And let's say my cost is roughly $400 and I want to keep no less than 25 kits in stock so I can ship them in a timely fashion... so that's $10,000 in captial tied up in my DIY kit. For a company this may be typical and quite reasonable, but for an individual, I don't think it is.

And keep in my I haven't mentioned the additional time and effort that goes into placing and following up with orders, packing kits, etc.

Most people around here want to do DIY for themselves in their spare time (usually in the specific area that interests them most), and do not really have the desire to provide kits to people. However, they do provide a tremendous amount of knowlegde and insight on a daily basis around here.

And the last topic I'll touch on is that it's very difficult to please everyone with kits. For example, I like Lundahl transformers, but many people around here think they're too clean and not colored enough. Even with rack case design, it's difficult to please all.

I don't think the "new market" idea will work out too well around here for the aforementioned reasons.

 

[sodderboy]

I think the total cost is greater when selling kits rather than made and tested units. A Big Knob kit (SMT considerations aside) would cost more than a built and tested unit. The support aspect of coaching someone through their construction to find a reversed cap, burned trace, or swapped wire requires the skills and time of the kit designer, not someone who simply put parts in a bag. Imagine having to remotely suss DOA construction mistakes all day. Yikes!
I really respect JLM because Joe and his people know both their product and the customer. They dial into mistakes posted here with laser aim. I think that kits sold by Jameco and other dealers have a disclaimer regarding malfunction. You would have to for a $10 kit.
And there are hundreds of kits out there if you look, and thousands of opinions about them.
Mike

 

[lagoausente]

I¨ll try to fit the thread better on the Drawing foum below, but first I want to coment some things.
In the development on a device there are two diferent processes. The design and the building. This two process are very different as an economic point of view.
Let´s take an example. JLM builds for me a preamp, completely, at price 2500. Imagine I have 9 friends that want the same preamp. The total cost would be 10x2500
Now imagine I aks JLM for design to me a preamp, only the schematic. And cost me 1000. Now imagine I have 9 friends tha also want the same design. The cost would be the same 1000. And if we divide the price, it would cost to any of us only 1000/10= 100.
But... JLM can think..., wait, I´ll sell you the desing at 5000, because it´s a bargain for you.. Even that, it would cost us 5000/10= 500.
What I want to say, is that there is a dramatical diference between the labor and the design in relation to what makes something afordable or not.
So, to start, just tell that I was asuming all the mounting work would be by the buyer side. And to be viable, the seller would must win the most money on the pcb.
Even more, the most current components that can be buyed on any electronic store, better not included with the pcb, because is an extra job for the seller that doesn´t benefict him.
But now, returning to the Drawing board, I would like to coment some thoughts that have crossed my mind this days, and that has relation with the viability of the pcb design.
The most often coment I read on audio forums, about preamps is that, many guys look fot "the best preamp", to what the most users reply; "there is no ideal preamp, it all depends on the use, and combination with mic, style etc, depends on what you need"
and also "the best is to have a diferent range of preamps"..
How true.
I´m thinking about a posible multi-preamp. Of course I´m not sure if the folloing ideas can be technically posible, but maybe they are.
Think about a PCB board, designed with diferent sections, switchable.
Let´s thinkg for example; 3 different input circuits. (Transfor A, Transfor B, and transforless)
Another 3 diferent output circuits with diferent transfor also.
Now, istead on op-amp circuit, two ones. Two diferent op-amps, with their own circuits.
Now think the posibility to can switch, out side the box, any combination of input/op-amp/output circuits.
Let´s imagine for example a mono preamp, with two inputs and two outpus. It would be a double mono preamp. Let´s say:
Op-amp 1
Op-amp 2

Input circuit Trasnform A
Input circuit Trasform B
Now think a swith with three positions:
Position 1: contects input transofr A with op-amp 1, and transf B to op-amp 2
Position 2: conect the input transf B two op-amp 1, and input trasf A to op-amp 2.
Position 3: both op-amps to a transformless input circuit.

Now, let´s do the same for output circuits.
Let´s say for example another posibilities about some sub-circuit setions that could be by-passed, or switched to other sub-circuits with diferent componets that change some characteristics of the preamp.
The posibilities would be very large.
At first, maybe it seems to complicate too much things, but it would have some advandages.
If is technical posible, the hardest work would be to desing such PCB, but that hard work would be positive. As I told before, one desing can be used by many guys, and so, that PCB would must be sold at a quite higher price than the current kit ones.
Even it could be expensive for the buyer, it would be afordable at the end result. Note that the user would have several preamps in one, with diferent color, warmer or cleaner, quieter, etc etc, depending on high number of combinations of transf ,op-amps, circuits... etc
Just need a PDF guideline to the user know what characteristics gives any of the switchable combination´. The total cost of all that preamps, and so diferent colors, sounds would be a fortune. So even you would sell the PCB for a high price, it would worth for any buyer.
Note that the key is on sharing. For example, 6 preamps, have 6 PSU, 6 pcb board, 6 box, 6 hand labor on assembling etc, and of course all the components.
With a theorical multi-preamp, the cost woud keep afordable, for just been sharing the same PSU, box, pcb, assembing etc, just the aditional components would be summed.
Most of users don´t need 6, 8 or 10 preamps channels at time, but probably, no one user would resist the tentation on having many preamps on one, if it doesn´t cost a fortune.
I imaging that maybe be quite dificult to make electronic switch of diferent sections, without damage the components or making a terrible output blow. But I guess anyway must exist to do it. For example, making the switching in the way that swithes off the hole preamp between positions.
Being even more daring having in account that I have not much electronic knowledge, I imagine a microcontroller, that could act as a multiple switcher. I imagine a full multi-preamp full of components switchable to can get many presets, and between them, emulations of well-known preamps on the market.
Whatever or not, my ideas can be availbe, maybe the thread now can fit little better on the Drawing board. Hope it.

 

[Greg]

I'll touch on a couple points. When someone buys a preamp (or any piece of gear for that matter), you're paying for much more than just the physical piece of gear. You're paying for a warrenty and support if anything goes wrong with their product. If that preamp breaks, you get a new one... at least from a compnay that stands behind their gear. In DIY, if something breaks, you've got to fix it. Also, most "high quality" gear I've bought is built to a very high standard of physical/mechanical quality.

 

[lagoausente]

:shock: No opinion about the multi-preamp idea?

 

[alk509]

[quote author="lagoausente"]:shock: No opinion about the multi-preamp idea?[/quote]

I have a modular pre-amp kinda like that. I've only made tube active stages for it, but with a new PSU you could make it SS. All the gory details are on my website.

Peace,
Al.

EDIT: Well, fuck me! Scratch that, it's not on my website. I'll see if I can dig out all the information. It will probably be a while. :?

 

[lagoausente]

[quote author="alk509"][quote author="lagoausente"]:shock: No opinion about the multi-preamp idea?[/quote]

I have a modular pre-amp kinda like that. I've only made tube active stages for it, but with a new PSU you could make it SS. All the gory details are on my website.

Peace,
Al.

EDIT: Well, fuck me! Scratch that, it's not on my website. I'll see if I can dig out all the information. It will probably be a while. :?[/quote]

Interesting! I´ll like to see that modular unit.