Order of the Holy Ghost **(snowflake advisiory)**

[Tubetec]

Well surprise surprise several of the most prestigious schools in the country are in the full media glare over a wide range sadisto/sexual orgiastic acts of outrage ,
I'd heard it from the horses mouth a long time ago these places were hell on earth, no surprise to me whatsoever,

If you've got any chroi,graw,heart for Ireland at all take a listen to the direct testimony from former pupils for your self,
Liveline ,RTE radio1 ,Joe Duffy ,
Many of our 'Taoiseach' or prime ministers ,justices of the high court, high profile bussiness men and sports heros were pupils at the prestegious Blackrock College,
Devalera himself was a teacher there ,

 

[sahib]

.......
Devalera himself was a teacher there ,........

May be Michael Collins was bumped not because of selling out, but because he knew something?

 

[JohnRoberts]

some more morning sunshine?

JR

[edit- this is technically not against the rules because your ugly insults are not directed toward specific forum members, but this language makes some uncomfortable. /edit]

 

[Tubetec]

I tempered the fire in my opening post ,

These are dark matters , I dont expect the topic to suit everyone ,
The whole thing raises serious questions about the people who end up
in the highest positions of power ,

Interesting question Sahib ,
Collins left school at 15 , state run national school ,thought by christian brothers in secondary ,
Dev was the same state/CBS , but awarded a scholarship to Blackrock College when he was 16 at the insistance of his local cleric .

He was always a sombre old crow Devalera , Collins on the other hand was outgoing , a man who very much lit up a room
with his presence . Theres no doubt Dev was worried about being overshadowed by Collins' magnetic personality in the longer
run . The 'Big fella' nick name Collins got didnt refer to his height initially , he thought big even as a child .
Theres an old saying in Irish politics , its not the opposition you need to worry about , its the guys on your own team .

Would Collins have been willing to take part in the cover of up of physical and sexual abuse in church and state run institutions
to the same degree as Dev , If they were partners in a government did Dev stand any chance of running the show the same way as ever with Collins around? Maybe Collins would have put a bullet in Dev the moment the ugly truth emerged ,
By Dev's own admition he signed the death warrant of a better man than himself by sending his friend off to London to sign the treaty .

Later Devalera would make personal visits to the institutions ,
All the children would be brushed up to meet the great man, a stage managed a smile for the camera and everyone would pretend all was rosey in the garden .
He knew well what was going on .

There was an account from a former pupil of Blackrock on the radio yesterday ,
he told the story of one priest who tried to get something done about what was going on , I think he was left go from the priesthood and lived in the locality afterwards .
Its was a well known fact many violent sex offender priests and brothers were housed in their later years at the college , segregated from all the fresh meat in their own nonce enclave , having been shifted around from one place to the next as the complaints came in , then finally put out to pasture .
The number of living members of the congregation with complaints against them now stands at 77 and still rising by the day .
There solicitors are quietly settling claims for millions and millions , and they can well afford it , parts of the former grounds were sold off for hundreds of millions after the land was re-designated as real estate 15-20 years ago.

Another ex pupil told his story ,
perfect job , perfect wife, perfect car kids house , but plagued by fits of rage his whole life , He was afraid he wouldnt be believed if he ever spoke of his treatment at the hands the Order of Ghosts ,
, decended into drinking and drug addiction as the years went on , destroyed everything around him , now back on the right road again trying to rebuild his life and leading the campaign for restitution to others effected by the goings on.

 

[sahib]

Interesting question Sahib ,
.................................
By Dev's own admition he signed the death warrant of a better man than himself by sending his friend off to London to sign the treaty .....................

I have a special interest in the history of Irish independence.

I do not think Dev and Collins were the best of buddies.

And Dev certainly made a smart move there by not going himself as originally planned. He knew it was a win-win for him no matter what Collins came back with.

 

[Tubetec]

My grandparents had monumental collection of books on Irish history , every signifigant work ever on the subject I'd say ,
I must make an enquirey , I could have stepped forward when asked what I wanted when they cleared out the house but I just took a few humble ornaments and others had seniority in any case ,
My grandad even wrote a few paperback historicals about the ledgendary figures in Irish history , the kind someone could pickup at the news stand and read on a train or bus journey , be you local or someone with another frame of reference looking in ,there a good read.
His series really deserves to hit the shelves again , just as envisiged , realtime ,old fashioned paperback ,

In any case , it all comes as a timely reminder to reconnect with this branch of my tribe ,who I absolutely adore for their speak the truth/shame the devil attitude to life ,
I'll see if we can scan a few excerpts as a preview , I'll send them out via pm to anyone interested ,

There was a Paddys day a while back , I hooked up with a few of my US chatmates , I ended up causing the girls a dynamoh hum to meltdown when I went live on mic telling tales of the olden days Ireland from my grandads book, they were willin' to offer me credit card details for a spectacular finish and my PM box was getting hammered , like I was meat on the hoof up for auction, I had to pull the plug on the concept entirely

 

[Tubetec]

Sonny boy from the song book of Noel Brasil,

high saluts

 

[ruairioflaherty]

Tubetec,

As an Irishman who has lived abroad for 11 years now I feel your posts consistently paint a grim and tormented version of Ireland.

There is a persistent air of "we found them out, the emperor has no clothes" anti power dynamic. Or worse, a kind of othering of the capacity for evil as though it isn't in every man and woman alive.

I see some things about Ireland's colonial history that are interesting and somewhat unique but mostly I see human problems, versions of which exist everywhere and in every era.

I have to admit that the Irish capacity for complaining is a sore spot for me, it's part of our culture that I think undermines us. And I'm given to it too, and mindfully trying to move past it. So, it may just be me being over sensitive.

Complaining is easy and mostly hollow. Doing something, making something, generating change is hard.

I know you love our country and culture, so maybe consider sprinkling in some of that on occasion?

 

[Tubetec]

First of all I greatly appreciate your reply Ruairi ,
I value your opinion and yours too Rob,

I was one of the lucky ones who slipped the net ,my mom had me outside marriage in the mid 70's,
Theres one reason I was spared from the adoption system , that was my grandad , he didnt kick his daughter to the side of the road
so she had no choice but to go to the nuns ,He didnt give a shit what the neighbours thought ,
Im sure he knew enough about what was going on in the institutions of church/state to spare us hell on earth ,

Life wasnt perfect , it still dished out the usual knocks and bumps along the road ,
I wasnt the biggest guy in the class , nor bothered with sports ,
I wasnt afraid to stand up to bullies with my fists , but most of the time I'd try and negotiated my way out of trouble .
I have to admit to myself there was a time where I dished out a slap a bit to readily ,
I met one guy from my class I was mean to a bunch of years back , I apologised ,
He told me he had taken up kick boxing , I said take your best shot I wont raise a hand ,
Sure enough the guy gave me a feckin wallop of a kick into the knee ,
I kept my side of the deal and hobbled off .

My parents made it known to me as a kid they wanted me to me to do my two leaving cert years in boarding school , Rockwell college was an option , run by order of the Ghost ,
The thought of it sent shivers down my spine , I protested against the idea firmly ,
In the end I had quit school at 15 , if they had tried to force me into boarding school I'd have never forgiven them and I would most
certainly have shaken the foundations of what ever institution I ended up at .
I was offered private day college if I wanted it , I had a look at the place , spoke to the headmaster ,
In the end we looked at the price , I told my mom , this is a load of bullshit, save your money .

I know for some they quitely put all these difficult to deal with subjects away in a far corner of their mind ,
a place they'd rather not go , if external factors like news media act as a trigger it feels like a wave of negativity or dark cloud is passing over and they need to change subject , apply themselves to their work or otherwise divert their attention .

I'm wired differently to most and I tend to face things head on ,
The subject of the adoption system and institutions of the state is one I feel strongly about ,
it could very easily have been me , I was fortunate ,
I was able to get a better perspective on my own life by lending an ear to good friends who'd been to hell and back,
Again many naturally recoil from conversations of this nature as a defense from having to open their own hurt locker,
but then how effective a listener are we being if we put our fingers in our ears and start singing a tune when the people around us need someone to talk to.

Hasnt it been said the Irish are beyond psycho therapy ,
or theres not enough therapists on the planet ,
The religious congregations still run many private schools here to this day , the abuse is largely a thing of the past , people living with the aftermath of abuse are all around us though , the vast majority of primary schools have the parish priest as chairman , the days when the creepy nonce would call around and try and get the kids to sit in their lap are gone for good
The concept of alterboys, another bullet Im very glad I dodged , he woudnt have caught me down on my knees reciting the bible and flicking him off with the other hand , he most likely would have got a full force punch in the bollocks off me though :-0

My uncle as a small boy drove a pencil straight through a christian brothers hand for trying to have a fiddle off him in class , he got the almighty shit thumped out of him , when my grandad heard what had happened he went straight into the school , pinned the christian brother up against the wall and told him he'd kill him if he ever touched the children again .
In all likelyhood that individual didnt stop meddling with kids ,but was moved to another parrish to do the same .
Im not trying to glorify the use of violence , but if it is the church and state who are trying to abuse your children you have no choice but to take matters in hand yourself , whats the other option ?

I think as individuals and collectively we have a responsibillity to face the darker doings of the past , if we dont we can end up going around in circles for generations .

 

[ruairioflaherty]

Thank you for the thoughtful reply Tubetec. I had pieced together the various parts of this story over the years form your posts.

Going out on a limb respectfully... One of my favorite quotes is from Byron Katie and she says simply "Who would you be without your story?". I'd offer that there might be a better way to honor the suffering in your the past and in your family's past than carrying it and reliving it every day. The prison cell door may be open for you to just walk out.

If we ever get to meet you'll see that I'm not one to shy away from difficult conversations, but they are only worth having if they are useful. Otherwise it's self flagellation and needless suffering just like the nonsense the church peddled about "heroes" like Matt Talbot (Matt Talbot - Wikipedia - for the curious, see the "Death" paragraph).

I don't imagine there is a single person here who would condone or defend the actions of the Catholic Church in Ireland past, or the Government for being complicit. There is also nothing they can do to right historic wrongs. I have similar stories to yours here in Sunny "progressive" California in my immediate family, lifelong suffering and guilt. So I'd suggest our friends here on the forum are not immune to feeling, just busy with their local parallels and struggles of life.

Ireland does not have to be defined solely by it's past.

Good luck with everything.

 

[cyrano]

Sometimes, words can't heal, but only console...

 

[Tubetec]

Thanks Ruairi ,
The past is indeed the past , we cant go back in time , fix things up and zip back to a better future .
What we can do is take a dispassionate look at the past , thats not easy , first we need to disentangle all
of the emotions , work through them one by one , then were maybe in a better position to see the wood from the trees .

I know Ive expressed things from a very Irish perspective , perhaps shedding a light into dark corners many would choose to avoid or leave behind .
Im not doing this to try and gain sympathy personally , or make myself a martyr to a cause like Matt Talbot (I hadnt heard of him before now)
As l said before Ive been able to put my own troubles into better perspective by taking account of other peoples lives , its made me less judgemental , more capable of empathising with others less fortunate than myself . Im fairly certain If I hadnt had the neck to tackle these dark matters I'd be very much worse for wear on a personal level by now .

Agreed 100% , the subjects Ive tried to tackle in my scribblings here arent exclusively Irish issues at all and the same lines run in parrallel through every society on the planet .
What Ive noticed is this , a kind of mirror image exists in the old institutions , the rich kid is sent off to private boarding school , the poor boy might be snatched away by order of the court and sent to the industrial schools , its the same exact system in opperation in both places , but the gulf between rich and poor , which is man made , seeks to prevent this realiseation . The rich look down on the poor , the poor look down on the rich and it prevents us seeing both sides are only pawns in a game . Of course outcomes are typically very different , if you and your family were detained by the state and abused , your not likely to have any trust in the 'state apparatus' ever again . Conversely if you were rich and sent to private schools you had to put up with the same system of abuse , if you kept your head down , kept a lid on what was really going on , you might get offered the top jobs at the end .

I managed to skip through life on a middle class ticket , I had all the oppertunities open to me as far as education was concerned , I had the wisdom to avoid the institutionalised brainwash/reward system. Others I know took the bait , outwardly they have the big job,big car ,big house, beautiful wife , a seemingly perfect life , inside their a total mess .

Theres a little old lady I see some days on my way down town , she wheels a childs push chair with her few bits of shopping in it , she sometimes sits at a bench on the main street , she gestures and talks towards the the pram as if it had a baby in it , many would pass her by without as much as a look , others might just dismiss it as madness , it costs me nothing to say hello on my way past , somedays she even manages a little smile and its like the sun shining through the clouds .

I was very much hoping to get more people and not nesessarily just Irish opinions on the topics Ive mentioned , so please contribute if you can .

 

[cyrano]

I spent a large part of my childhood in a catholic boarding school. Never had any problem with the "brethren of love". Yes, that is what they're called.

We had one brother who was a religious nutcase. He saw the devil in some Newton rings on a Polaraid pic taken when he went on a pilgrimage to Compostella (Spain). He wasn't dangerous, afaict. The director, OTOH, had velvety hands. He caressed many cheeks. No abuse, afaict. In the end, he left the brotherhood and married a woman with six kids he met at the railway station.

The brethren that went to Africa, OTOH, had the wildest stories. Like driving a Harley that you needed to pee on to get it started. They also told stories that ended abruptly when they realised they were telling us unacceptable things involving native women.

In the end, we're al human. We all have our faults. If only we'd realise where the line is.

These days, it seems the line is where the victims choose to place it. And that's probably OK. At least for me. The victims have suffered for millenia. High time those in power get their piece of the pie...

 

[Tubetec]

Interesting perspective Cyrano .
I guess some religious orders were better at keeping nonces away from children than others .
In any case the church itself faces some stark choices if it wants to survive , the vow chastity seems to draw in the wrong people from the outset , abolishing it isnt on the cards according according to his eminence ,the Pope , neither will the edict of papal infalabillity be done away with . The cruel Irony is the last Irish person to join the priesthood was a former IRA man who made bombs and blew people up before finding god.

A friend of mine studied a couple of years at Maynooth college , thats also the churches primary learning establishment for people joining the priesthood , a big door was firmly locked in the evenings to keep the dodgey ones well away from the lay students , he reckoned around 50% behind the door were closet homosexuals ,the other 50% were scared shitless he said .

 

[cyrano]

I imagine the catholic church just has a lot more power in Ireland. Belgians always had a deep distrust of power. Wherever it comes from. We've been the battlefield of Europe for centuries. That's where the distrust comes from.

Also, the brethren were far more broadminded and open than some monks. I was an atheist from a very young age, thanks to my grandmother who had a problem with anything religious. The family suspects that she must have had a bad experience with a priest, but she never uttered a word about it.

Being atheist wasn't a problem for the brethren. Somehow, they knew they'd never turn me around, so they didn't even try. I wonder if they knew about my grandmother...

 

[Tubetec]

Theres many dark stories in my family ,

One of the most poignant and sad was my moms cousin , eldest male , sent away to the priesthood as was the custom back in the day,
He eventually met a woman he loved , was allowed to leave the priesthood ,but died 9 months later of cancer .

Other stories of children with intellectual and physical dissablements handed off to instutions and suffering horrendous ill treatment .

Good stories too of course , I have a downs syndrome cousin in her mid 60's , she was raised at home by her loving mother and kept away from the institutions , she lives in her own self contained flat now ,happy and healthy . The typical life expectancy of a downs syndrome person in the institutions was probably mid 20's back in the bad old days.

Theres a few stories about my grandad in the earlier years ,
He lost my Grandmother young , and was constantly beset by marriage proposals which he declined , as was the way here mostly .
He was a watch and clockmaker by trade, the nuns adored him , of course he did them a good turn when he could ,went down and
kept the clocks ticking and the bells ringing , there was one who'd try and get him aside on ocassion , she'd take a hip flask from her garter belt and offer him a sup of whiskey , the craic must have been mighty down the pub later when he told his buddies the story .

The people of my grandparents generation mostly stayed loyal to the church , there was one exception my grand uncle ,
he trained in law , he took a landmark case against a member of the medical profession for negligence , he was advised left right and centre to drop the case or he would end his career , he ploughed on , won the case and he and his wife said farewell to family and friends and left the country for 20 years before returning . In the meantime my grand uncle became a magistrate in UK and eventually administered justice amongst the headhunters in Borneo and Papua New Guinnea , theres a photo exists of him in his judges garb with 12 shrunken skulls set on the table . They eventually returned to Ireland in the late 70's but never felt at home , a couple of years later they moved to Berkshire to their daughters georgian mansion and lived out their days , I got to visit at aged 11 , I have to admit I was a bit of a handful, I would have been quite at home with the oppulence and the V12 Jag and the Range rover and the swimming pool and the horses , they indulged me and I got to act like a little lord of the manner for a week or so, I demanded to watch Rambo on VHS , which they allowed me to do under supervision .
He instantly became an athiest after the case ,never worshipped in church or even asked for a priest to attend in the event of his death .

For me I guess I played along with religion as thought in school in the earlier years , but I always had a sense it was rotten from the top down , instincts proved correct .
Mostly my mom was church going in her lifetime , but later suffered the indignity of an annulment at the hands of the church ,
She kept her faith in god athough she abandoned organised religion after that appart from weddings and funerals .
I regret not insisting on accompanying my mother when those bastards did their Spanish inquisition on her , they would not have got away with it and treating her in that way . I'll spare ye the Tarantinoesque scenarios , but you know what I'm saying , the devil himself would have been at the controls .

Anyway , we soldier on the best we can ,

 

[ruffrecords]

Religion and churches in particular have a lot to answer for. Of course it is all about power.

Cheers

Ian

 

[cyrano]

Even Santa Claus has a lot to answer for these days...

Over here, it's saint Nicolas. A Turkish catholic bishop who resurrected two kids, after they 'd been killed by a butcher, to be eaten. That story never worked for me, seeing saint Nicolas was wearing my uncle's shoes, when he visited our house.

Nicolas always came with "black Pete", who was, well, black. But he's being deleted. No more Pete, I'm afraid. Pete was responsible for putting the naughty kids in his bag. Who's goin' to handle that, then?

I mean, who has time to worry about bullsh*t like that. Don't we have anything else to worry about?

Mind you, the news about Pete being deleted was the most popular item in several papers for days...

 

[JohnRoberts]

Even Santa Claus has a lot to answer for these days...

Over here, it's saint Nicolas. A Turkish catholic bishop who resurrected two kids, after they 'd been killed by a butcher, to be eaten. That story never worked for me, seeing saint Nicolas was wearing my uncle's shoes, when he visited our house.

Nicolas always came with "black Pete", who was, well, black. But he's being deleted. No more Pete, I'm afraid. Pete was responsible for putting the naughty kids in his bag. Who's goin' to handle that, then?

I mean, who has time to worry about bullsh*t like that. Don't we have anything else to worry about?

Mind you, the news about Pete being deleted was the most popular item in several papers for days...

I'm surprised that nobody has attacked "Black Friday" as racist... (yet).

JR

PS: apparently Joy Behar on the view raised that question but Whoopi was down with Black Friday.

 

[Tubetec]

In the context of the discussion Ive tabled John , an utterly worthless and diversionary commentary .