Panasonic Electrolytic Caps different Series - Opinions

[Whoops]

Hello,
for electrolytic caps I normally use Panasonic branded caps.
They were always reliable and have a good price.

I buy from Farnell and sometimes there's so many different Panasonic series for the same value, and very similar price that I get confused on the series I should choose.

I know that low ESR is important for SMPS but some people say very low ESR caps might not have the best dialectic/chemicals for the audio path, neither the ultra low ESR is needed.
What are your opinions?

Also from the different Panasonic caps what are your preferred series for audio signal path and why?

I can see a lot of series of Panasonic in Farnell for common values (100uf, 220uf, 470uf and 1000uf):
FM
FC
FR
NHG
M
EE
KS
EB
EEUFC
HD
FK
AM
ED
KA

Any comments on these series?

I think it would be nice to have a table that would compare all the series so it would be easier to choose.
I'm not too picky, I know that any modern cap from a well known brand will be good and perform well, but as prices are similar I would like to make the best choice.

Thank you so much for your opinions and comments

 

[user 37518]

ESR is not very relevant for audio, Panasonic caps are great, they also have a very long life time and they are rated at 105C.

The ones I recomend are:

FC<FM<FR

FR being the best.

 

[Khron]

Those series also depend on what footprint you need for the given value / voltage.

FC and EEUFC are the same, I think - the latter is just the more complete / official series name.

NHG are 105c "general purpose"; M are the same in 85c flavour. EE / EB / ED / HA i believe are the big fat snap-in series. KS / KA might be the "subcompact" ones (4-7mm height). I'm sure there's some diagram on the Panasonic Industrial website.

 

[abbey road d enfer]

ESR is not very relevant for audio, Panasonic caps are great, they also have a very long life time and they are rated at 105C.

That is a performance aspect I can identify with.

FC<FM<FR

FR being the best.

On what criteria are you basing this opinion?
For low distortion, proper design should ensure that no significant AC voltage exists across a coupling capacitor. Usually, even at VLF, the voltage drop due to ESR is way smaller than that across the reactance of the cap. Typically, with a -3dB point at 2Hz, resulting in -0.04dB at 20 Hz, the voltage across the ESR is more than 40 dB below the voltage across the cap's reactance.
I've read stupid comments asserting that low ESR results in "etched" treble...
It's depressing how so many people believe a capacitor would put its imprint on tone just by being there, when it's the interaction with the rest of the circuit that matters. OTOH they don't realize a bulky cap results in more capacitive coupling with the rest of the circuit.

 

[abbey road d enfer]

I get confused on the series I should choose.

Me too. I generally end up buying caps of dubious provenance on Ali Express.

I know that low ESR is important for SMPS but some people say very low ESR caps might not have the best dialectic/chemicals for the audio path, neither the ultra low ESR is needed.
What are your opinions?

Sure, tlow ESR is not a criteria for coupling caps. However, the way the electrodes are formed may have some effect on other parameters, perhaps DA or loss factor. Anyxay I have never seen that DA or loss factor have an effect on signal transmission, as long as the voltage across the cap is kept much lower than the signal.

I think it would be nice to have a table that would compare all the series so it would be easier to choose.

+1, as long as the evaluation is done on an objective basis and in conditions close to usual good practice. Remember that Cyril Bateman had to submit capacitors to improper conditions to make them misbehave in such a way it was measurable.
Today, we have test equipment that has about two orders of magnitude more resolution than what he had.
It's a task for a monk.

 

[JohnRoberts]

Low ESR capacitors were developed for use in switching PS, they may have some benefit in passive loudspeaker crossovers (due to higher working current) but for general audio DC blocking that is not significant.

+1 to what Abbey said, properly used there will be no changing terminal voltage across the blocking capacitors so non-ideal behaviors related to terminal voltage changes are not excited.

Modern electrolytic capacitors are quite good and much better than they were decades ago.

JR

 

[user 37518]

On what criteria are you basing this opinion?

More hours of rated life time and lower ESR, 105C, thats it, I've used them a lot and I am very pleased, I really only care for ESR on SMPS. As for sound, that is subjective and I wouldn't dare to comment. I haven't measured their THD.

AFAIK FM and FR are basically the same, FR just has longer life time.

My MCI console gets hot as hell, so my main focus is on life time and rated temperature.

If its low THD you are after, according to Bateman's research a Bipolar electrolytic is the best among electrolytics. Also, like you mentioned aswell as Self and Bateman, the AC voltage accross it is important, a larger cap will produce lower THD.

You can always spend a fortune on esoteric audiophile grade caps.

 

[Whoops]

More hours of rated life time and lower ESR

But if ultra low ESR is not needed for our audio circuits and it fits more the SMPS bill, then why FR series?

FC is already Low ESR, just not ultra low. It's also rated at 105C.
Why not FC?

Thanks what I'm trying to figure out, thanks

 

[Whoops]

Those series also depend on what footprint you need for the given value / voltage.

FC and EEUFC are the same, I think - the latter is just the more complete / official series name.

NHG are 105c "general purpose"; M are the same in 85c flavour. EE / EB / ED / HA i believe are the big fat snap-in series. KS / KA might be the "subcompact" ones (4-7mm height). I'm sure there's some diagram on the Panasonic Industrial website.

Thank you so much, that helps already

 

[john12ax7]

FC is a common choice. FM specs a little better and often cheaper as well. Am also curious to hear others opinions on the various series.

 

[Khron]

Further reading:

https://b2b-api.panasonic.eu/file_stream/pids/fileversion/2830https://b2b-api.panasonic.eu/file_stream/pids/fileversion/2831

 

[Whoops]

Modern electrolytic capacitors are quite good and much better than they were decades ago.

Definitely, I completely agree.

Its just that when I search in farnell by a cap value, and filter it by brand, Panasonic in this case, even if I also filter by 105c the list of the option is big with a lot of different series. The price diference is not that much in a lot of situations so it's confusing what series to choose and if there's some that due to their specs/characteristics would fit better the audio work, then I could make a better choice.

Thanks

 

[Whoops]

Further reading:

https://b2b-api.panasonic.eu/file_stream/pids/fileversion/2830https://b2b-api.panasonic.eu/file_stream/pids/fileversion/2831

Thank you so much Khron,
that really helps.

 

[Whoops]

so next question,
do we want "Low Impedance caps" for audio and "High ripple" for PSU's?

is that it?

 

[john12ax7]

Usually the ripple current is a function of the ESR, the lower the impedance the less heating and the higher the ripple current handling.

Can someone clarify the mechanism for the distinction between low impedance and high ripple?

 

[abbey road d enfer]

View attachment 81012
View attachment 81013

View attachment 81014

I must say I'm none the wiser...

 

[abbey road d enfer]

do we want "Low Impedance caps" for audio and "High ripple" for PSU's?

As if these two properties were incompatible...

 

[Khron]

Usually the ripple current is a function of the ESR, the lower the impedance the less heating and the higher the ripple current handling.

Can someone clarify the mechanism for the distinction between low impedance and high ripple?

For low impedance parts, the ripple is usually specified @ 100kHz, which needs to get derated for lower frequencies (in some cases, down to 0.5 of the 100kHz ripple, for 120Hz).

"High ripple" ones may or may not be specified for 120Hz, or 100kHz. I haven't done the statistics myself, but it may vary on a series by series basis.
Or, at the very least, they don't necessarily have their ESR specified in the first place.

 

[Whoops]

As if these two properties were incompatible...

I was just relating to the Panasonic series graph, it seems they put these 2 properties in oposite extremes of the spectrum for their series.
At least the way they represented that...

 

[user 37518]

But if ultra low ESR is not needed for our audio circuits and it fits more the SMPS bill, then why FR series?

FC is already Low ESR, just not ultra low. It's also rated at 105C.
Why not FC?

Thanks what I'm trying to figure out, thanks

FR has longer life time